# Cops ambushed and shot in Brooklyn **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 20, 2014, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771 "2014-12-20T21:20:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771/41 "2014-12-21T03:40:10Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > How many cops are in NY? 25,000? 40,000? I’m not sure. The arrests each month have to be in the tens of thousands for a city the size of NY. 99.99% of those arrests are done professionally with minimum danger to the cop and the citizen. Cite that “99.99% of those arrests are done professionally with minimum danger to the cop and the citizen”? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771/42 "2014-12-21T03:42:28Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Are we reading the same letter? The exact words he used were “retrain the entire NYPD to reduce the use of excessive force”. Thats pretty clear that he’s blaming all the officers for the actions of a few bad ones. Don’t be ridiculous. If I know that one fork was dropped on the floor, but I don’t know which one, should I wash them all, wash none of them, or wash 1 at random and hope it was the dirty fork? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771/43 "2014-12-21T04:33:05Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Cite that “99.99% of those arrests are done professionally with minimum danger to the cop and the citizen”? That’s been the problem. The press has mentioned there aren’t any national statistics on police abuse or shootings. There should be and that’s something that needs to be fixed. Common sense tells us it must be pretty rare. I haven’t seen any mass graves being dug behind any police depts. I haven’t seen a parade of beaten up citizens holding their medical reports. A lot of people get arrested and jailed in this country. Over 2 million were in US prisons in 2011. We hear about relatively few police shootings or abuse. Certainly there is some abuse but its been blown way out of proportion in the recent news frenzy. > **[Incarceration in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States)** > > Incarceration in the United States is one of the primary means of punishment for crime in the United States. In 2021, over five million people were under supervision by the criminal justice system, with nearly two million people incarcerated in state or federal prisons and local jails. The United States has the largest known prison population in the world. It has 5% of the world’s population while having 20% of the world’s incarcerated persons. China, with more than four times more inhabita Dr... > [@](#): > > According to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS), 2,266,800 adults were incarcerated in U.S. federal and state prisons, and county jails at year-end 2011 ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771/44 "2014-12-21T04:36:54Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Common sense tells us it must be pretty rare. In the history of bad arguments that’s probably the worst. You’re not even trying. ---
**Author:** ![3trew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/13edae/32.png) [@3trew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3trew)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771/45 "2014-12-21T04:57:28Z")
> [@mack](#): > > The ‘thrown under the bus’ accusation was made more in response to remarks DeBlasio made about how he and his wife lectured their son about how he needs to be careful when dealing with cops than whatever’s in that letter. I’ve seen enough posts about “The Talk” to conclude that this isn’t so much throwing under the bus as common sense and pretty much ubiquitous for people of colour. To steal from someone smarter than me: “When are they going to start making phones, wallets, and black people’s hands that don’t look so much like guns?” ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771/46 "2014-12-21T05:06:26Z")
Al Sharpton condemned the murder of the 2 police officers. > **[Sharpton: Our city is hurting from the vicious murder of two NYPD officers](https://www.nydailynews.com/2014/12/20/sharpton-our-city-is-hurting-from-the-vicious-murder-of-two-nypd-officers/)** > > Our city is hurting, we are hurting. Today we mourn the loss of two NYPD officers who were gunned down in a vicious act of senseless violence. As soon as news broke of the tragedy in Brooklyn, I sp… > [@](#): > > Our city is hurting, we are hurting. Today we mourn the loss of two NYPD officers who were gunned down in a vicious act of senseless violence. > > As soon as news broke of the tragedy in Brooklyn, I spoke with both the families of Eric Garner and Michael Brown. And let me be perfectly clear, we are all outraged and saddened by the deaths of these police officers. Any use of the names of Eric Garner and Michael Brown, in connection with any violence or killing of police, is reprehensible and against the pursuit of justice in both cases. > > At every rally and every march, we have stressed nonviolence and peaceful protests. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771/47 "2014-12-21T06:16:04Z")
I think the OP is reading the letter as being solely about violence by the police against blacks. That is not how I read it. To me it is more of a letter about the relationship between blacks and the police. The way the justice system treats black offenders vs whites is not equal. This doesn’t have to be intentional on the part of any single individual. It is complicated and involves many factors. The classic example of this is the disparity in sentences for crack vs powdered cocaine. A more recent news story would be the disparity for marijuana arrests between whites and blacks. We have pretty good data showing that usage rates are pretty similar, but notice the difference in arrests for such crimes: > **[The black/white marijuana arrest gap, in nine charts](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nine-charts/)** > > Black people are no more likely to smoke marijuana than white people. They're 3.73 times more likely to get arrested for it. The more often blacks are stopped - the more likely it is that something is going to go wrong. And while crime rates did go down in New York - and it often is attributed to factors such as getting tough on crime and “broken window” policing - this is pretty much NOT accepted by the academic community - or anyone who can look at a graph: [http://www.motherjones.com/files/blog\_violent\_crime\_six\_large\_cities\_2.jpg](http://www.motherjones.com/files/blog_violent_crime_six_large_cities_2.jpg) Crime rates followed more or less the same curve nationwide. And while it can be argued that New York was more successful than other areas - to suggest that this had something to do with Bernard Goetz - much less “culminated” with - is not supported by any data. The factors the led to the decrease in crime have been debated - and the guys that wrote Freakonomics made a fairly good case relating it to the legalization of abortion - and others have tied it to decreases in environmental lead. Of course those cops shouldn’t have been shot - I don’t think any sane person would want that. But to suggest that the Mayor is somehow throwing the police under the bus or preventing them from doing their job - and sending New York back into an era of rampant crime is pretty silly. The Mayor, President, and everyone running for office likes to claim they can do all this stuff to solve the crime problem - but they matter very little in the grand scheme of things. If the police unions want to get all upset about this - they can. They wanted the NFL to penalize players who made a protest on the field. I think most people can see through this. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771/48 "2014-12-21T06:30:08Z")
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that the two policemen he killed weren’t white? One was Latino, the other was Chinese-American. Incidentally, to their credit, the family of Michael Brown issued an immediate condemnation of the killing without any sort of prompting. Also, without meaning to sound ghoulish, am I the only one reminded of opening to Fort Apache, The Bronx. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771/49 "2014-12-21T06:46:46Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Am I the only one who finds it ironic that the two policemen he killed weren’t white? > > One was Latino, the other was Chinese-American. I get the impression that the anger is directed towards the police and doesn’t have a racial element. All police are seen as the enemy. Given the way the police occasionally (though admittedly rarely) act as no more than the biggest and most powerful gang on the street, this is not necessarily an unfounded attitude in all cases. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771/50 "2014-12-21T06:48:28Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Also, without meaning to sound ghoulish, am I the only one reminded of opening to Fort Apache, The Bronx. Were these two cops rookies? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771/51 "2014-12-21T06:55:14Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > I get the impression that the anger is directed towards the police and doesn’t have a racial element. All police are seen as the enemy. > > Given the way the police occasionally (though admittedly rarely) act as no more than the biggest and most powerful gang on the street, this is not necessarily an unfounded attitude in all cases. Aye, this isn’t white vs. black, this is cop vs. black at the very least (to the BGF, for instance) and cop vs. non-cop to some, I’m sure. The skin color of the officers was irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771/52 "2014-12-21T10:42:28Z")
Some information has been released about the two officers. The families of these men are shattered only days before Christmas. > **[Deaths of Wenjian Liu and Rafael Ramos, NYPD officers shot dead in ‘ambush,’...](https://www.nydailynews.com/2014/12/21/deaths-of-wenjian-liu-and-rafael-ramos-nypd-officers-shot-dead-in-ambush-triggers-wave-of-sadness/)** > > They were devoted cops, husbands, heroes. The deaths of the two NYPD officers slain on Saturday — Wenjian Liu and Rafael Ramos — triggered waves of sadness across the city and beyond. L… > [@](#): > > Liu (right), 32, married two months ago. Ramos (left), 40, worked as a school safety agent before fulfilling his dream of becoming a cop three years ago. > > The officer just celebrated his birthday Dec. 12. He has a 13-year-old son. > > Police Commissioner Bill Bratton, after visiting the officers’ families, said Ramos’ son was in disbelief over his father’s death. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771/53 "2014-12-21T13:06:56Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Its incredible this guy traveled all the way from Baltimore to Brooklyn just to ambush and kill two officers. Just under 200 miles. Incredible? Maybe he had other business in the city. Wut? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771/54 "2014-12-21T20:20:18Z")
CNN said a NYPD live news conference is scheduled in about an hour. Should learn more. I’ve wondered why this guy shot his gf. Was she trying to talk him out of this? Or planning to notify the police? Also, whether there’s any indication of direct involvement by the BGF. I’d assume the Baltimore Police Gang units has been busy pulling the BGF off the streets for interviews. Their various criminal activities are more than enough for at least a 24 hour hold. I really hope they weren’t directly involved. This is a big gang with organizations in at least two states, and paramilitary. The drug money they take in gives them access to a lot of weapons and other resources. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771/55 "2014-12-21T20:35:16Z")
I heard it was an ex-girlfriend, but that’s irrelevant, the guy was obviously messed up in the head. Now since he was from Baltimore could you explain in what way De Blasio had anything to with this incident? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771/56 "2014-12-21T20:39:58Z")
I never accused De Blasio, Sharpton or any demonstrators of direct involvement. Not even indirect. They had absolutely nothing to do with this tragedy. I did say the NYPD feels like they were thrown under the bus. I’m sure you’ve seen yesterdays video of the cops turning their backs to De Blasio at the hospital? It’s on every news channel. For better or worse he is their commander in chief. The top dog and he didn’t have their backs. Any boss should have his employee’s back. He may chew their ass out in private for a fuck up. But in public a boss is supposed to have his employee’s back. I’ve been there and really appreciated it when my boss stuck up for me after a mistake. I caught hell later, but he stood up for me. That relationship between De Blasio and the NYPD will take quite awhile to mend. But, that’s all separate from this tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771/57 "2014-12-21T21:27:53Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I heard it was an ex-girlfriend, but that’s irrelevant, the guy was obviously messed up in the head. > > Now since he was from Baltimore could you explain in what way De Blasio had anything to with this incident? The perpetrator being from Baltimore in no way proves De Blasio had nothing to do with this incident. It’s not as if big city Mayors are only broadcast within their own city. I have no idea if De Blasio’s comments exacerbated the situation. However, the killer being from Baltimore does not exonerate the Mayor. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771/58 "2014-12-21T21:35:27Z")
News conference is just about over. A few points covered… Suspect had no gang tats on his body. They’ve found no links to the BGF so far. He had broken up with his gf but let himself into her apartment with a key. Argument ensued and he shot her. Called her mom later to apologize and said he hoped she pulled through. He bounced around living with relatives in Ohio, Georgia, Baltimore and had arrests in those areas. Numerous jail sentences. Nothing very long. mostly a few months at a time. Couple suicide attempts. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771/59 "2014-12-21T21:38:33Z")
Given his previous suicide attempts. I’d speculate that after shooting his gf he knew serious prison time was in his future. He decided suicide was better than serving extended prison time. He wanted to take out a couple cops before he went. Which is what he did. Went out with a bang, and got his name in the newspapers. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771/60 "2014-12-21T21:39:55Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > For better or worse he is their commander in chief. The top dog and he didn’t have their backs. Any boss should have his employee’s back. He may chew their ass out in private for a fuck up. But in public a boss is supposed to have his employee’s back. I’ve been there and really appreciated it when my boss stuck up for me after a mistake. I caught hell later, but he stood up for me. That relationship between De Blasio and the NYPD will take quite awhile to mend. Two questions: first, why do you find three NFL players holding up their hands while walking on the field unacceptable, but police turning their back on their “commander in chief” acceptable? Second, was your boss an elected representative of millions of people, a good percentage of which believed you (in your professional capacity) were doing racist things to them? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-ambushed-and-shot-in-brooklyn/707771.md?page=4)