# Cops Drive Over Sunbather On Beach. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 13, 2006, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603 "2006-06-13T19:11:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603/41 "2006-06-14T20:47:16Z")
The local [Ventura County Star](http://www.venturacountystar.com/vcs/news/article/0,1375,VCS_121_4773533,00.html) article. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603/42 "2006-06-14T20:50:38Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > What I’m saying is that you are probably covering for obvious physical and emotions stunted growth, wandering the message board spewing your useless drivel and pointless insults to entire professions and making yourself feel like a real man when you are just a pathetic loser. This is not appropriate in this Forum. If you have to vent at another poster, take it to the **BBQ Pit**. Do not do this again. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603/43 "2006-06-14T20:57:42Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Major problems prosecuting either charge. Nothing in the linked article suggests that this was more than ordinary negligence. You’d have to have something more to stick a homocide charge…excessive speed, reckless disregard for the safety of others, something like that. Excessive speed in this context would be driving too fast to be able to see people lying on the sand. So driving at 10 mph would be excessive if it meant that you could not see a person lying in a dip in the sand before you drive over it. So, prima facie, driving over a sunbather is negligent. Just the same as if you were driving on an ordinary road, in heavy fog, at a low speed, but still hit someone on a cross-walk because you did not see them. > [@The Mercury News](#): > > Lifeguards undergo multi-day beach driving training, must observe a speed limit of 15 mph unless they are driving to an emergency with their lights on, and must look under their cars every time they stop to make sure that nobody has crawled underneath or sat down nearby, he said. That may be a little excessive, but it does seem reasonable, after you have stopped for a while, and before you drive off blindly, just checking who is on the sand in front of your vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603/44 "2006-06-14T21:07:45Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Excessive speed in this context would be driving too fast to be able to see people lying on the sand. So driving at 10 mph would be excessive if it meant that you could not see a person lying in a dip in the sand before you drive over it. So, prima facie, driving over a sunbather is negligent. Just the same as if you were driving on an ordinary road, in heavy fog, at a low speed, but still hit someone on a cross-walk because you did not see them. Never said it was negligent. It was. A wrongful death case here will likely settle. A criminal case ain’t happening, unless there’s important details missing from the three linked articles I have seen. This is ordinary negligence. Not a criminal act. Period. Amen. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603/45 "2006-06-14T21:08:51Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Never said it was negligent. It was. A wrongful death case here will likely settle. A criminal case ain’t happening, unless there’s important details missing from the three linked articles I have seen. This is ordinary negligence. Not a criminal act. Period. Amen. GRRRRR…WHY IS THERE NO EDIT FEATURE? meant to type I never said it was not negligent. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603/46 "2006-06-14T22:05:10Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Good point. I made the unfouded assumption that these officers were just part of a normal beach patrol not tasked with lifeguard-type duties. Unfortunately, the Mercury News story I found doesn’t explain any of the missing data either. From the link posted by **tomndebb** : > [@](#): > > There are no lifeguards stationed at Mandalay Beach, so Oxnard police drive the beach sporadically but do not perform lifeguard functions, Crombach said. The beach is a small part of a large patrol area. Which would imply that they are on regular patrol in a squad car/SUV and swing by the beach as part of their normal patrol. Still, if they do this regularly they should get the same training that the lifeguards do about operating vehicles on the beach. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603/47 "2006-06-14T22:08:53Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This is not appropriate in this Forum. If you have to vent at another poster, take it to the **BBQ Pit**. > > Do not do this again. > > [/Moderating] My apologies to all. I did think we were in the Pit when I typed that. I’ll be sure to double check if I ever feel the need to vent like that. ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603/48 "2006-06-14T22:16:41Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > Obviously, she wasn’t using enough UV protection. Obviously she wasn’t using enough _ **S** UV_ protection. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603/49 "2006-06-14T22:24:12Z")
> [@tomndebb in re Telemark](#): > > This is not appropriate in this Forum. If you have to vent at another poster, take it to the **BBQ Pit**. > > Do not do this again. Thanks. For may part, yeah, I spoke too casually about cops as a group. But police departments in general today _are_ too isolated from the people they serve. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603/50 "2006-06-14T22:25:53Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > My apologies to all. Thanks. > [@](#): > > I did think we were in the Pit when I typed that. I almost wish we had been; the urge to respond in kind was very hard to resist. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603/51 "2006-06-14T22:31:43Z")
So these guys who risk their lives every single day in the line of work they chose, get distracted when considering if they will be risking their life again, and have a terrible and tragic accident they they regret terribly. Get a rope. ---
**Author:** ![Capa84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8edcca/32.png) [@Capa84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capa84)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603/52 "2006-06-14T22:38:02Z")
For some reason I want to substitute “swimmer in danger” with “group of bikini clad blondes” ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2006, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603/53 "2006-06-15T00:31:06Z")
I was surprised by the “didn’t realize” part too. Last week I hit a frog ☹ It, with its squishy little body, made enough of a bump to feel it. I realize sand has some give (though not enough to push the small rocks you walk on all the way into the ground), but even so, you should be able to tell you’ve hit _something_ pretty big if it’s a head… ---
**Author:** ![kittenblue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ba8739/32.png) [@kittenblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kittenblue)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2006, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603/54 "2006-06-15T01:05:57Z")
So don’t anyone take this the wrong way and think I’m blaming the victim, because she could have been sound asleep, or the engine on that vehicle could be exceptionally quiet…but I’m curious. All the reports said the officers pulled up to the top of the berm, sat there a while observing the swimmer and then drove forward over the top and down the slope. So she didn’t notice a vehicle pull up within a few feet of her? She didn’t sit up to see why there was a car idling near her? I have a hard time understanding all the “they should be more careful, have more training, have someone walking in front with a bell…” blame for the police here. They weren’t, according to the reports, driving recklessly. Unfortunate things, bizarre things, can happen where no one is really to blame. As **samclem** so eloquently said, shit sometimes happens. Would there have been so much blame if it had been a member of the beach-cleaning patrol? Or the lifeguards? Or the guy who runs the hotdog stand and uses his light truck to make a restocking run? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2006, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603/55 "2006-06-15T01:13:55Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > I was surprised by the “didn’t realize” part too. Last week I hit a frog ☹ It, with its squishy little body, made enough of a bump to feel it. I realize sand has some give (though not enough to push the small rocks you walk on all the way into the ground), but even so, you should be able to tell you’ve hit _something_ pretty big if it’s a head… Do you say this from personal experience, or are you just projecting? ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2006, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603/56 "2006-06-15T02:40:43Z")
> [@kittenblue](#): > > So don’t anyone take this the wrong way and think I’m blaming the victim, because she could have been sound asleep, or the engine on that vehicle could be exceptionally quiet…but I’m curious. All the reports said the officers pulled up to the top of the berm, sat there a while observing the swimmer and then drove forward over the top and down the slope. So she didn’t notice a vehicle pull up within a few feet of her? She didn’t sit up to see why there was a car idling near her? > > I have a hard time understanding all the “they should be more careful, have more training, have someone walking in front with a bell…” blame for the police here. They weren’t, according to the reports, driving recklessly. Unfortunate things, bizarre things, can happen where no one is really to blame. As **samclem** so eloquently said, shit sometimes happens. Would there have been so much blame if it had been a member of the beach-cleaning patrol? Or the lifeguards? Or the guy who runs the hotdog stand and uses his light truck to make a restocking run? I, too am kind of curious about this. If I were lying on a beach and suddenly heard an engine I’d look to see what the heck was going on. From the article it sounds like there are no other vehicles on the beach. So, if someone was lying on a beach where no traffic should be and suddenly heard a truck you think they would at least look around. Something doesn’t make sense about this. Either she didn’t hear the truck (possible if it was moving fast, maybe) or she didn’t react to a truck coming towards her. I can see the second option being possible if she was asleep or impared in some other way. Or she heard it and ignored it. 😕 Slee ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2006, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603/57 "2006-06-15T09:08:27Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > No one has said they were driving wildly or in a rush. They couldn’t see where they were driving as they crested a berm. That’s not excusable in any way, but a little more understandable. Well, yes, driving without due care and attention then. I would expect to have to look for others using the beach in the same way that I would look for cars and not pedestrians on the motorway, but both when I’m driving round my girlfriend’s estate. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2006, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603/58 "2006-06-15T13:00:53Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > I, too am kind of curious about this. If I were lying on a beach and suddenly heard an engine I’d look to see what the heck was going on. From the article it sounds like there are no other vehicles on the beach. So, if someone was lying on a beach where no traffic should be and suddenly heard a truck you think they would at least look around. > > Something doesn’t make sense about this. Either she didn’t hear the truck (possible if it was moving fast, maybe) or she didn’t react to a truck coming towards her. I can see the second option being possible if she was asleep or impared in some other way. Or she heard it and ignored it. > > 😕 > > Slee The roar of the surf and the prevailing wind may make it difficult to hear a vehicle. And if the truck were on one side of a berm and the woman on the other, there’s another factor contributing to the inability to hear a vehicle. I’m not familiar with the beach in question, but I’ve seen vehicles on other beaches. One would think that the officers would have been trained to not run over people, and would know that people are likely to be _anywhere_ on a beach. Wrongful death, yes; criminal, no. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2006, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603/59 "2006-06-15T22:30:55Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Well, clearly we are viewing this with only the bare minimum of information and no details, so I can only speak in abstract terms. > > It seems to me that if I run over a child in a school crosswalk, I would be charged. > > A sunbather on a beach would be as logical to expect as a child in a school crosswalk – both happen every day, barring weather. A sunbather on a beach is low and hard to see – as is a child. > > Still, I’m betting I would be charged. > > Sailboat The point of my OP was that that sunbather had a reasonable expectation that she would be safe ON A BEACH WHERE SUNBATHING and seagoing-related activities were legally permitted. She should have expected to be safe, healthy and unmolested in all ways. OTOH, when you are hired to patrol said beach, and you are in said SUV- for whatever reason you are placed into the SUV- it is incumbent upon you, not said sunbather, to show due dilligence. They did not. They should be charged. As will come as no surprise to most folks, law enforcement and safety officers are held to a higher level of responsibility because it is their job to rise to that level. They failed to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2006, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603/60 "2006-06-16T01:06:33Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > . > > They did not. They should be charged. As will come as no surprise to most folks, law enforcement and safety officers are held to a higher level of responsibility because it is their job to rise to that level. They failed to do so. And this is why laymen are not allowed to practice law. A crime has either been committed, or not. Does not matter who the putative Defendant may be, the elements of the crime are exactly the same. There is either evidence to prove those elements, or there is not. The victim isn’t any deader than she would otherwise be. For the umpteenth time in this thread, a civil claim for wrongful death is likely to be sucessful. A criminal charge is not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-drive-over-sunbather-on-beach/360603.md?page=4)