# Cops Kill Innocent Hofstra Student **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 19, 2013, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722 "2013-05-19T04:45:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/81 "2013-05-20T19:33:09Z")
OK, so suppose the cop just made one headshot. What happens then when that one single shot hits the hostage? Or it hits the hostage-taker in the shoulder instead of the head and the hostage-taker kills the hostage? Or if it even actually hits him in the head, and the hostage-taker _still_ kills the hostage? Unless you think that the cop was such a good shot that he could hit the basal ganglia, guaranteed, without seeing it and through the skull. But at that point it’s irrelevant: If he’s that great a shot, then he can also safely fire off 8 shots and be sure of none of them hitting the hostage. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/82 "2013-05-20T19:33:53Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > Have you ever tried to make a head shot on a moving target with a handgun? Hell, have you ever shot ANY target with ANY gun? It’s nowhere near as easy as the movies make it look. No, I haven’t. Yes, I have. I am not a police officer nor do I have the training they received. I’m not saying it’s easy. I don’t see what this has to do with anything at all. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/83 "2013-05-20T19:40:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course there’s such a point. > > I know of no police department in the United States that requires otherwise. > > Do you? Apart from adolescent TV-inspired fantasy, do you know of any police department whose General Orders mandate the result you describe? > > The only instance in real life in which an officer is mandated to deliberately sacrifice his own life for another’s – that I can think of – are the Secret Service’s various protection details. Maybe I am misinformed here. I’m just looking at this from a priority standpoint. 1. ensure safety of hostages 2. ensure safety of officers 3. arrest the perpetrator ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/84 "2013-05-20T19:43:53Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Criticize the decision, not the outcome. > > Nobody is Hollywood good with a firearm, any time you shoot towards multiple people, anyone downrange can get hit. If shooting was the wrong decision, the fact that the guy got lucky with his 8 shots shouldn’t get him off the hook. If shooting was the right decision, the fact that he got unlucky with one of his shots shouldn’t get him in hot water. > > Demand good decision making and competence with their firearm. Don’t reward luck and criticize imperfection. That’s true to an extent. However, I’m sure the officers intention was to land all 8 shots into the perpetrator. So, by your logic, he should be exempt from criticism. I don’t think that’s the case. I think outcomes do matter. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/85 "2013-05-20T19:45:52Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, so suppose the cop just made one headshot. What happens then when that one single shot hits the hostage? Or it hits the hostage-taker in the shoulder instead of the head and the hostage-taker kills the hostage? Or if it even actually hits him in the head, and the hostage-taker _still_ kills the hostage? Unless you think that the cop was such a good shot that he could hit the basal ganglia, guaranteed, without seeing it and through the skull. But at that point it’s irrelevant: If he’s that great a shot, then he can also safely fire off 8 shots and be sure of none of them hitting the hostage. That’s true. I don’t think there is any concrete solution here. It’s simply a tragedy. All you can do is look at what went wrong, and what went right, and try to learn from it. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/86 "2013-05-20T19:49:28Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Maybe I am misinformed here. I’m just looking at this from a priority standpoint. > > 1. ensure safety of hostages > 2. ensure safety of officers > 3. arrest the perpetrator I should also mention that this where I think they screwed up. They were trying to accomplish all three tasks at once. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/87 "2013-05-20T19:56:06Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Maybe I am misinformed here. I’m just looking at this from a priority standpoint. > > 1. ensure safety of hostages > 2. ensure safety of officers > 3. arrest the perpetrator Sure, that’s a reasonable way to list priorities. But that doesn’t mean that any attempt, however unlikely to succeed, must be used to ensure the safety of the hostages without regard for the second priority, the safety of the officers. Consider it this way: if the officer fails to shoot, then he dies, and the hostage is still a hostage, and her captor still has a loaded gun. So neither choice facing him results in the guaranteed safety of the hostage. But his choosing to shoot has a very good chance of ensuring his own safety. So even if these are the correct priorities, his choice to shoot was the correct one. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/88 "2013-05-20T20:05:57Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > I’m not saying it’s easy…I’m sure the officers intention was to land all 8 shots into the perpetrator. So, by your logic, he should be exempt from criticism. No, they shouldn’t be exempt from criticism. They also should not be criticized for not doing what is nearly impossible. If, as the police allege, the hostage taker said he was going to kill the hostage, then the police in the situation have to try to do the nearly impossible, and shoot the bad guy without hurting the good guys. That is very, very difficult to do, and i would expect that _most of the time the innocent hostage gets hurt._ The alternative is to let the hostage taker kill his hostage, and to kill some police as well. Neither of these are good outcomes, but in the extremely short time the police had to decide, he decided to chance shooting. I don’t know if the first bullet hit the hostage, or the eighth, but it really doesn’t matter - once you start shooting, you continue shooting until the target falls. This is an awful tragedy. But sometimes the police have no good choices. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/89 "2013-05-20T20:12:35Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Doesn’t the eight shots suggest that the cop _didn’t_ empty his gun? I don’t know squat about guns, but wouldn’t that be an unusually low capacity? I don’t know what particular model of pistol this particular police department was using, but 17 rounds is the most common magazine capacity for most police semiautos. So if he only fired 8 rounds, in all likelihood didn’t empty his gun. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/90 "2013-05-20T20:17:00Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > That’s true to an extent. However, I’m sure the officers intention was to land all 8 shots into the perpetrator. So, by your logic, he should be exempt from criticism. Not at all. The criticism should be regarding the choice to take a shot, not the officer’s intent. Given the totality of the circumstance, where the various people are, the range of the shot, how much cover the perpetrator has, realistic expectations for marksmanship, availability for your own cover, etc. was the choice to pull the trigger the right choice? This needs to be something that can be assessed (theoretically) before the officer starts shooting, because the officer has to make the decision before he starts shooting. The decision should be assessed based on what the officer knew at the time, which does not include the ultimate outcome. Once he shoots, you can also review his competence with his firearm, and any followup decisions he makes. He makes 8 center of mass hits on the perp, good shooting, but you’re fired because you REALLY shouldn’t have been shooting in that circumstance. He hits 8 random bystanders all over the place, quit closing your eyes when you shoot, oh, and you’re fired for being so awful with your gun, even though you made the right decision to shoot. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/91 "2013-05-20T20:17:41Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > No, I haven’t. Yes, I have. I am not a police officer nor do I have the training they received. I’m not saying it’s easy. I don’t see what this has to do with anything at all. You’ve been applying Hollywood shooting standards to a real-life shooting event. That’s why I asked if you’d ever fired a gun. Combat shooting is NOTHING like shooting a stationary target at a range, and NOTHING like what the average American sees in Hollywood movies. (And unfortunately these days Hollywood is where most Americans get their ideas about what police work is supposed to be like). **Chronos** said it best: criticize based on the decision-making (if it was faulty), not merely the end result. A dead hostage doesn’t automatically mean the police did anything wrong. (And sometimes things work out for the best despite awful screwups; unfortunately, that’s rarer.) ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/92 "2013-05-20T20:19:36Z")
Ok I’m not saying that shooting was the wrong choice. In fact, it may have been the only choice. However, what incentive does the perpetrator have to shoot the hostage? Without them, he has nothing. Surely, the cop knew this going in. Could there have been more negotiation? I don’t know. I’m not going to exclude it as a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/93 "2013-05-20T20:28:40Z")
If the hostage-taker thinks he’s most likely a dead man by the time this situation ends, shooting the hostage will inflict more pain on his way out, and may stun bystanders into fleeing/creating chaos that may be to his advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/94 "2013-05-20T20:28:42Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > However, what incentive does the perpetrator have to shoot the hostage? Have you ever heard the expression “suicide by cop”? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/95 "2013-05-20T20:30:04Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Not at all. The criticism should be regarding the choice to take a shot, not the officer’s intent. Given the totality of the circumstance, where the various people are, the range of the shot, how much cover the perpetrator has, realistic expectations for marksmanship, availability for your own cover, etc. was the choice to pull the trigger the right choice? This needs to be something that can be assessed (theoretically) before the officer starts shooting, because the officer has to make the decision before he starts shooting. The decision should be assessed based on what the officer knew at the time, which does not include the ultimate outcome. > > Once he shoots, you can also review his competence with his firearm, and any followup decisions he makes. He makes 8 center of mass hits on the perp, good shooting, but you’re fired because you REALLY shouldn’t have been shooting in that circumstance. He hits 8 random bystanders all over the place, quit closing your eyes when you shoot, oh, and you’re fired for being so awful with your gun, even though you made the right decision to shoot. I do not see the difference between intent and choice. The former begets the latter. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/96 "2013-05-20T20:31:13Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > If the hostage-taker thinks he’s most likely a dead man by the time this situation ends, shooting the hostage will inflict more pain on his way out, and may stun bystanders into fleeing/creating chaos that may be to his advantage. Point taken. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/97 "2013-05-20T20:32:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Have you ever heard the expression “suicide by cop”? > > Regards, > Shodan Yes, I have. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/98 "2013-05-20T20:47:26Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > I do not see the difference between intent and choice. The former begets the latter. There is a difference between having good intentions and making good choices. If you pull the trigger when it’s a bad idea to pull the trigger, no amount of intent makes up for it. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/99 "2013-05-20T20:49:08Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > However, what incentive does the perpetrator have to shoot the hostage? Without them, he has nothing. Our criminal starts this scenario with three meatbags under his control. What’s wrong with perforating one or two of them? That still leaves him one meatbag left, and that’s all he needs. And perforating one of the meatbags will make it clear to the cops that he’s a Bad Dude and Means Business (and unless they believe that, his bluff ultimately won’t work). I don’t think you understand the dynamics of a hostage situation. A hostage situation is the ultimate high-stakes game of poker. Once the hostage taker is down to a single hostage, he’s in a no-win situation. He’s backed into a corner with no real way out. But it can take a while for the reality of that to sink in and for the hostage-taker to accept it. And when it does, he still has two choices: give up peacefully, or go out fighting. What the police try to do (if they have the time and opportunity to do so) is to encourage the hostage taker to make the first decision: give up peacefully. The first few minutes of any hostage situation (especially one involving multiple hostages who are complete strangers to the perpetrator) are the most dangerous, because the perpetrator sees the hostages as undifferentiated objects rather than actual people, and may feel the need to show he’s not bluffing about his willingness to commit violence. For that reason, it’s common in a multiple-hostage situation for one or two of the hostages to be killed right away. It scares the others into compliance, and demonstrates to law enforcement that his threats of violence aren’t a completely empty bluff. It’s a lot harder, though, to kill Peggy,who’s 23 and engaged to be married next month, or Frank, who works at the local bank and spends his spare time coaching Little League, than it is to kill Generic Meatbag #1. The longer the hostage situation plays out, the more time there is for the hostage taker to come to see his hostages as actual people rather than just pawns to be manipulated. So if they can the police try to play for time, stalling and often making the situation subtly uncomfortable for everyone involved (for example, turning off the electricity in the house so the air conditioner’s no longer working) because shared discomfort also helps create a bond between the hostage-taker and the hostages ('we’re all in this together, it’s us versus the police"). They also try to form a bond between whoever’s negotiating and the hostage-taker; if the fellow feels his grievances are being heard and taken seriously, this tends to drain away some of the anger and desperation which led to the hostages being taken in the first place. The more time elapses, the more time the hostage taker has to think about the whole situation, the more likely it is he’ll give up. But sometimes the hostage-taker is clearly too wound up and violent for negotiations to work, or there’s simply no time to implement them. In that case, the police are down to their last option: try to shoot the hostage taker before he kills any hostages. Sometimes that works well and innocent lives are saved. Sometimes, despite all the skill and training of the police involved, it doesn’t. This was a bad, bad situation: a violent man who took complete strangers as hostages in a spur of the moment decision. I don’t know whether all the police decisions leading up to the moment of the shooting were correct or not (no one does at this point), but this is exactly the sort of hostage situation which is the most likely to end tragically. There may not have been a good ending possible in this case, because irrational and violent people aren’t well known for their stellar reasoning capability. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/100 "2013-05-20T20:59:48Z")
Quality explanation **Artemis.** I do see a bit more clearly why the officer took the course of action he did. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722.md?page=6)