# Cops Kill Innocent Hofstra Student **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 19, 2013, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722 "2013-05-19T04:45:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/101 "2013-05-20T21:14:33Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Quality explanation **Artemis.** I do see a bit more clearly why the officer took the course of action he did. I think it’s hard for most of us to truly appreciate what a volatile and dynamic situation a hostage scenario really is (particularly in the first few minutes) or to contemplate the mindset of most violent felons at the time they’re engaging in a crime. That’s why I’ve been standing up for the police in this thread. Certainly the police can make bad decisions, and not all officers have as much training as we’d like to see (and some are jerks who shouldn’t be working in law enforcement). But in this case I think the responding officers were in a situation where they had to make some very tough decisions very quickly. Maybe in retrospect another decision would have been better, but it’s always easy to say that after the fact. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/102 "2013-05-20T21:43:56Z")
This hostage-taker would probably be the kind to go out shooting. He was facing at least thirty years, if not life. This tragedy ruined lives beyond the obvious. Several what-ifs that will haunt the survivors. It’s easy to ay they are blameless, and of course they are, but it won’t feel that way. The boyfriend falling down the stairs into the front door, accidentally locking out the second cop. The friend sent out to get more cash who made the 911 call. And especially the cop; I can’t even imagine reliving that horror every day. There is only one bad guy. I hope the family winds up supporting the cop. Its happened before in similar incidents. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/103 "2013-05-20T21:57:25Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > He was facing at least thirty years, if not life. That is extremely doubtful. Didn’t you read about his criminal history? When I read a brief summary, my reaction was “I don’t understand why he is out on the street; with this record he should still be in prison” Anyone have the exact details of his criminal history? ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/104 "2013-05-20T22:30:41Z")
Smith had miltiple robbery convictions and had just finished a nine year sentence for the most recent offense. What sentence do you think he was facing for home invasion, robbery and kidnapping? ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/105 "2013-05-21T02:17:40Z")
my question is not why the cop hit the girl, but how he shot her in the head. he had to be reasonably sure of his shots to have taken them, and the other seven shots hit the man and not elsewhere yeah? is it Hollywood to expect that the shots be nowhere near the girl’s head, and be around the center of mass instead? ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/106 "2013-05-21T02:37:23Z")
Well, it’s not quite clear what kind of headlock it was. If it was one where he was using her as a human shield or one with basically her head clutched with her rear-end sticking out behind them. If the latter, it’s easy to see why it would hit her head as that would likely be the most prominent area. The criminal himself would probably be blocking the rest of her body. Also, from this angle, it’s reasonable to see why the cop might feel comfortable taking so many shots. ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/107 "2013-05-21T03:30:46Z")
if it was the latter, and he’s not shielding his own head, is it Hollywood to wonder why a headshot is not attempted? again, with the other shots hitting home, i assume the cop had clear, easy shots. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/108 "2013-05-21T03:55:30Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > if it was the latter, and he’s not shielding his own head, is it Hollywood to wonder why a headshot is not attempted? again, with the other shots hitting home, i assume the cop had clear, easy shots. Yeah, I know. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/109 "2013-05-21T04:20:27Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > if it was the latter, and he’s not shielding his own head, is it Hollywood to wonder why a headshot is not attempted? again, with the other shots hitting home, i assume the cop had clear, easy shots. There is no combat situation with a handgun where a headshot is a clear, easy shot. (You need a scoped rifle and a very good marksman for that.) And remember, if the cop’s first shot misses, the criminal’s got a chance to either shoot back or to shoot the hostage. Aiming for center of mass is less likely to miss. Of course, until more details are released we’re all just speculating. Right now we have no idea where the cop’s shots hit the criminal, or how tightly grouped they were. And we don’t know how the criminal was holding the hostage in relation to his own body. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/110 "2013-05-21T12:54:15Z")
Again, what are police trained to do in this situation? I think TV/movies have explored every possible variation, and we all speculate based on what we have seen, but, … what is the actual training? ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/111 "2013-05-21T13:56:02Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Again, what are police trained to do in this situation? I think TV/movies have explored every possible variation, and we all speculate based on what we have seen, but, … what is the actual training? In a situation where an armed perp is aiming a gun at them, police are trained to shoot, generally at the center of mass. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/112 "2013-05-21T15:51:20Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > is it Hollywood to expect that the shots be nowhere near the girl’s head, and be around the center of mass instead? Yes, it is (Hollywood). If you are taking your time shooting at paper targets on a practice range, one might reasonably expect a tight shot group. This situation was different. This officer was confronting an armed felon. Knowing he was entering a situation with a lot of unknowns and putting himself at mortal risk, his body was likely wracked with quantities of adrenalin never experienced by most civilians. This officer was mentally dealing with the prospect of taking another person’s life, which probably added even more adrenalin. Some people have extreme difficulty with killing: I’ve seen dash-cam video of a police officer who died because he could not bring himself to shoot at the man who was shooting at him. This officer had to make a split second decision to defend himself with lethal force when the perp pointed a gun at him. Even if the perp wasn’t moving around before the first shot, he was certainly moving around after the shooting began. Under these circumstances, it’s not at all reasonable to expect a very tight shot group from the officer. Under these circumstances, it’s also not reasonable to expect the officer to hold his fire and let himself be murdered by the perp. It’s been suggested that the officer never should have entered the house, given that this was a hostage situation; my understanding is that in hostage situations, the procedure is standoff/containment/negotiation. However, there is some question as to what info the officer had when he arrived on scene; he may have only been told that it was a “robbery in progress” and not known anything about any hostages. It’s entirely possible that he made the best decisions he could with the information he had. I’m not prepared to crucify him before a thorough investigation discovers all the relevant facts. And assuming his decision to shoot was a good decision, I won’t even begin to criticize his shot grouping under these circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/113 "2013-05-21T16:44:38Z")
Since we are speculating here, let’s understand that there is no such thing as training for all situations. What was this situation? It could be that we have a foolhardy cop, over-confident in his abilities who chose to do something stupid. It could be that we had cops in a situation that was bad and in the time it takes to read this, goes horrible. In that case, there may be NO SUCH THING as a good conclusion. We presume that this all boils down to good decision = good outcome and bad decision=bad outcome. The fact is that all of the training in the world does not prepare one to confront every situation and sometimes, no matter what you do, you are hosed. The fact is that we will never really know what the right or even best decision is. Despite all of the fabulous monday morning quarterbacking going on, nobody, to include the actual officers involved can ever know what the real situation even was. If you have ever been in a situation perhaps not even as dramatic at this one, it gets difficult to even know precisely what did happen. Trying to figure out what should have happened is at best an approximation. I look at it this way, but for the grace of God. I am glad I did not have to make that decision and I will be damned before I condemn someone for their decision and certainly not before the facts come in. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/114 "2013-05-21T16:56:42Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Yes, it is (Hollywood). It’s been suggested that the officer never should have entered the house, given that this was a hostage situation; my understanding is that in hostage situations, the procedure is standoff/containment/negotiation. However, there is some question as to what info the officer had when he arrived on scene; he may have only been told that it was a “robbery in progress” and not known anything about any hostages. I was thinking that as well. If dispatch simply told them “robbery in progress” or “man with a gun,” the responding police may not have known what they were walking into. If dispatch said “an armed suspect is holding several people hostage,” that’s different. ---
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/115 "2013-05-21T16:57:26Z")
We need to remember that a lot of plain old physics could be the problem here. Think of it this way. The cops may not have realized this was a hostage situation because it wasn’t until the cops walked in. At that moment, the bad guy can choose to fold or take a hostage…instant crappy situation. We need to also remember that there are lots of people in there. We know afterwards that there was one hostage taker and multiple victims. The cops don’t know that. Any of the hostages could actually have been another bad guy. Once the decision to shoot is made, lots of dynamics start happening. Bad guy slings victim into line of fire maybe on purpose, maybe not. Victim herself could have jumped into line of fire. Once bullets start going, they don’t stop just because someone is in the way. There are tons of what ifs. What draws my ire is when we forget that we are SPECULATING and begin drawing conclusions. This is done all the time in SD. Until we aren’t speculating, it is not time to praise nor condemn those involved (except the hostage taker…screw him). ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/116 "2013-05-21T16:58:08Z")
> [@MostlyUseless](#): > > We presume that this all boils down to good decision = good outcome and bad decision=bad outcome. The fact is that all of the training in the world does not prepare one to confront every situation and sometimes, no matter what you do, you are hosed. This is very true! ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/117 "2013-05-21T18:21:02Z")
Don’t forget, the officer didn’t intend to enter the house alone. His partner was right behind him, but was accidentally locked out when one of the hostages fell against the door. One can’t know for sure, of course, but the presence of backup could have made all the difference in the world. As it is, I can’t fault the officer, being on his own with the adrenaline flowing and in a situation that not one of us would have been in voluntarily. He is only human, and sheer bad luck determined the outcome. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/118 "2013-05-21T20:04:40Z")
I must say that I am pleasantly surprised by the number of Dopers who are not jumping to conclusions. Rampant speculation and criticism in the normal response to any police action that has anything less than a perfect outcome. If I learned anything in 25 years of law enforcement its that the general public has no idea about the realities of police work. Artemis and ducati have done a great job in trying to enlighten the masses. A couple of points: A head shot with a handgun in not a guaranteed instant kill. Officers are NOT trained to die without a fight. Quite the opposite. They do not sacrifice themselves or, at least, they are not trained to do so. As someone up thread mentioned - it seems the assumption is that it was the last shot that hit the girl. Maybe it was the first. Or second. MAYBE she was already down when the officer continued to fire at a gunman who was still an imminent danger to him. To say that he should have allowed himself to be shot because there was a chance he might hit her if he defended himself is preposterous. To criticize him for putting himself in a position where he had to shoot is equally absurd. Wait until the investigation is done and the facts are out. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/119 "2013-05-21T20:17:32Z")
> [@ducati](#): > > You understand nothing. This is one of the most idiotic statements I’ve ever read. > This is the worst situation for a police officer to face. The criminal MUST be dealt with, and the lives of hostages are of paramount importance. Add to this the stress of an unknown physical and emotional environment, yelling, threatening, an armed criminal refusing legal commands, a screaming hostage and more. > …snip… > > You have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. > \*\*After \*\*you’ve faced gunfire, and made hundreds of high-risk felony arrests in your law enforcement career, \*\*then \*\*you can speculate on the actions of others before an investigation is complete. > > This is a tragic outcome of a situation set in motion by a career criminal with no regard for human life. It is not deserving of your misplaced indignation and obvious low regard for law enforcement. \ Very well stated. Fortunately, during my law enforcement career, I never had a scenario like that. But I can most assuredly empathize with the officer. And do. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722/120 "2013-05-21T23:38:02Z")
I don’t think very many, if any, posters are condemning the officer. What I want to know is…what is the suggested action for an officer confronted by a perp holding a hostage? I think the experienced officers here are saying that if he and his partner knew it was a hostage situation, or, even, a potential hostage situation, the correct thing would be to stand off and wait for a negotiator. The experienced officers are saying, correct me if I misspeak, that the officers must not have know it was a hostage or potential hostage situation. Fair enough. Okay, the officer is, by unforseen circumstances, confronted with a gunman holding a hostage. Hollywood says, “the officer puts down his weapon, offers himself as the hostage if the gunman will let the hostage go.” or, “the officer puts up his hands, says, ‘wait, wait, wait’, and starts negotiating.” Surely, in some training, an officer is told what to do when he and a gunman are pointing guns at each other and the gunman is holding a hostage. surely, and correct me if I’m wrong, he is not told to shoot at the gunman without regard for the safety of the hostage. Please correct me if I’m wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-kill-innocent-hofstra-student/658722.md?page=7)