# Cops shoot airman **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 2, 2006, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635 "2006-02-02T04:44:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635/61 "2006-02-03T12:56:19Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > What the hey… > > And the cops would know who that anyone else is exactly how? Oh, yes…investigation. > And the cops would know what was on the vidoe exaclty how? Oh, yes…investigation. One more time. They have eyewitnesses. They have film. And they have a police officer who, if he had been me or you, would have been in jail by now, instead of “administrative leave”. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635/62 "2006-02-03T13:00:55Z")
One more time: There’s a process–you mentioned it yourself. The cop involved can still face charges. Now, I viewed the film and am disturbed by it. I’m more disturbed by lynch-mob mentalities. Read the thread again. ---
**Author:** ![DirkGntly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DirkGntly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkGntly)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635/63 "2006-02-03T13:20:15Z")
Listening/watching the tape again, I am perplexed by what happened at the very beginning. It almost sounds like the cop and the airman are arguing about being in the military and who served more time…it sounds like the cop is saying, “Yeah, well I’ve served more time than you ever have…” or something like that. Am I imagining that? Am I hearing it wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635/64 "2006-02-03T13:34:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > One more time. > They have eyewitnesses. > They have film. > And they have a police officer who, if he had been me or you, would have been in jail by now, instead of “administrative leave”. The police officer typically won’t be charged with a crime until the authorities have determined that the shooting was unjustified. With the police anytime a shooting occurs it has to first be examined to see if there was justification. If the police review board or whatever finds the shooting justified, then it’s time to start crying foul. But until that happens a criminal charge typically won’t be filed in a case like this. If it had been me or you, we wouldn’t be people who had any legal authority to use a weapon or to practice law enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635/65 "2006-02-03T13:44:22Z")
> [@DirkGntly](#): > > Listening/watching the tape again, I am perplexed by what happened at the very beginning. It almost sounds like the cop and the airman are arguing about being in the military and who served more time…it sounds like the cop is saying, “Yeah, well I’ve served more time than you ever have…” or something like that. Am I imagining that? Am I hearing it wrong? I heard that too, but couldn’t make sense out of it. What you propose sounds plausible though. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635/66 "2006-02-03T13:50:04Z")
Strike that, I just rewatched the video. It’s the _airman_ who says “Yeah, well I’ve served more time than you.” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635/67 "2006-02-03T16:54:46Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > _Being on the wrong end of a cop getting his first baptism by fire is really a drag. Some of course are just looking for an excuse and add a lot of adrenaline and it can get really deadly. That is why I am always a bit amused when the critics on the balcony get all heretical and saintly with their, “I would” and the “They should have’s.” because they have not a clue. Training is a big help but nothing will ever totally cover what will / might happen when adrenaline is up and time stops or disappears and your own mortality is in your face._ I’m not aware that being pumped up on adrenaline is an acceptable excuse for firing three rounds into an unarmed man for a civilian. I don’t really see why there’d be an exception for a cop. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635/68 "2006-02-03T18:21:24Z")
> [@](#): > > The deputy, whose name was not released, was placed on paid administrative leave, a routine procedure in officer-involved shootings. I was in a locker room yesterday and some police officers were discussing an unrelated case, something to do with automatic weapons and police officers, but one said something like, 'You want to get put on unpaid leave, not paid leave. At least with unpaid leave you know you’re coming back." That’s a weird mentality. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635/69 "2006-02-03T19:54:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m not aware that being pumped up on adrenaline is an acceptable excuse for firing three rounds into an unarmed man for a civilian. I don’t really see why there’d be an exception for a cop. It’s not, of course. _Particularly_ for a police officer who has been trained to deal with high adrenalin situations. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2006, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635/70 "2006-02-04T08:42:45Z")
What is fun today is that people are so fired up that they think I was defending the cop. _snerk_ Creatiative C&P … LOL _Tough to read with blinders on._ As to the ones calling for heads to roll. Fine, but just remember that swords have two edges. My only point is that this stuff happens and there is no way to 100% protect from it. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2006, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635/71 "2006-02-04T08:45:30Z")
Any news? How is the airman doing? I can’t hope to expect that the bozo who shot him is in custody - of course he’s “on admin leave.” ““Leave this”” ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2006, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635/72 "2006-02-04T08:50:07Z")
> [@Ponder Stibbons](#): > > _Particularly_ for a police officer who has been trained to deal with high adrenalin situations. Your opinion of the training of the average police officer ( street grunt ) in this country sure is rosy. All my cop friends would disagree with you as to it’s quality, especially as regards actual spontaneous shooting exercises. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2006, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635/73 "2006-02-04T09:17:00Z")
Is this situation reprehensible? Yes. Will this officer go to jail? No Every one of you who thinks this cop will ever see the inside of a jail cell without his badge on is completely ignorant. In Nevada, and in California, and in most states, all a police officer has to say is “I thought that I or someone else was in danger, and I was defending myself (or others) from what I percieved at the time to be a dangerous and threatening situation.” And the cop won’t go to jail. EVER. It might be found that his actions weren’t justified, but as long as the cop says this and keeps on saying it, his actions will NEVER be seen as criminal. In Nevada, we have never, not once, had an officer charged with a crime as a result of his/her firearm being discharged. Hell, we’ve never even had an unjustified shooting in Nevada. Not even when the man was on the ground, surrounded by armed police officers, and complying with their demands, and was shot in the back more than 20 times with an assault rifle. The officer said “I thought we were in danger” and the whole thing was swept under the rug. (I had links to this and other shooting in Las Vegas in an old post, but the Las Vegas Review Journal is now a pay site and the links no longer work.) Again, I tell you, this officer (who seemed to me to be teling the airman to get up so that he would have an excuse for shooting him) will NEVER see the inside of a jail cell without his badge on because of this shooting. NEVER. I’ll bet anyone a year’s subscription to these boards. NEVER. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2006, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635/74 "2006-02-04T22:42:02Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > I call bullshit on that. There’s no way an EMT crew would treat a broken finger before a gunshot victim. If the gunshot victim was Indian, it is perfectly believable that this would happen in Canada, especially in the prairies. ---
**Author:** ![fushj00mang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@fushj00mang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fushj00mang)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2006, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635/75 "2006-02-04T23:12:00Z")
> [@Yamirskoonir](#): > > By extension, perhaps the airman thought that revealing he was in the military would calm down the cop (he’s not just some gangbanger who’s packing), and/or make the cop go easier on him. Given the heightened situation, it was probably the former. But I think it can be said that in general, there is a certain kinship or understanding/respect between the members of the military and those in law enforcement. The airman expected to be treated differently by the cop, however slightly, by revealing his military status. You’re dead on about that. On two occasions, I’ve been pulled over (once for speeding, once for a broken tail light.) Both times, when I flip open my wallet for my driver’s licence, right in front is my military ID and my SP shield. Both times, the officer who pulled me became friendly, as opposed to simply professional. Watching that vid, the cop needs to go away. Far, far away. Perhaps Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635/76 "2006-02-05T01:02:28Z")
> [@fushj00mang](#): > > Watching that vid, the cop needs to go away. Far, far away. Perhaps Iraq? god no. why on earth would we want to send a person who uses unreasonable violence to Iraq. haven’t we had enough problems there? prison will do, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635/77 "2006-02-05T05:31:41Z")
I don’t think that the video is open and shut as to what exactly happened. It appears that the instruction to “get up” was not given by the deputy with the gun but by someone else. I’m far from an expert on such things but one sure way to create confusion is to have more than one person shouting instructions. Only one person should give commands and those loud enough for all to hear so as to give the best chance for all to know what the hell is going on and what to expect. Looks to me like a review of SOP’s is certainly in order. At the very least. ---
**Author:** ![GawnFishin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@GawnFishin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GawnFishin)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635/78 "2006-03-08T13:54:12Z")
Update: [Webb, 45, has been on administrative leave since the incident and could face 18 years in prison if convicted.](http://www.couriermail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,18388352%255E1702,00.html) I also like this part > [@District Attorney Michael Ramos](#): > > the videotape was crucial in the decision to charge Webb. If your going to get shot make sure some is there to film it. Could someone explain this part to me. > [@Michael Ramos](#): > > The deputy will not be charged with attempted murder. Prosecutors concluded that Webb acted in fear for his safety but that his fear was unreasonable. It’s not attempted murder because he was in fear for his safety. But that fear was unreasonable 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635/79 "2006-03-08T14:13:18Z")
Actually, I was just going to post in this thread an article I read in today’s print (Wed, 8 Mar 06) _Stars & Stripes_: > [@](#): > > SAN BERNADINO, Calif. – > > ``` > A sheriff's deputy who was videotaped shooting an unarmed war veteran after a chase will be charged with attempted voluntary manslaugher, authorities said Tuesday. The decision to charge Deputy Ivory J. Webb, 45, was annouced by San Bernadino County Distric Attorney Michael A. Ramos. > > Sherrif Gary Penrod said Webb will remain on paid administrative leave as the investigation into the shooting of Air Force Senior Airman Elio Carrion, 21, continues. > > "I respect the decision of the district attorney's office," Penrod Said. > > ``` But on the [website article](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AIRMAN_SHOOTING?SITE=DCSAS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-03-08-08-36-59) I didn’t see any specific charges listed. However, from the web article: > [@](#): > > Prosecutors, aided by the FBI and a company that analyzes tapes, reviewed the video repeatedly, Ramos said. > > “Not once did anybody in the DA’s office hear Deputy Webb say, `Don't get up,'" he said. "We all heard, `Get up.’” So, there ya go. Tripler Take it FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635/80 "2006-03-08T14:18:29Z")
> [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > Every one of you who thinks this cop will ever see the inside of a jail cell without his badge on is completely ignorant. > > In Nevada, and in California, and in most states, all a police officer has to say is “I thought that I or someone else was in danger, and I was defending myself (or others) from what I percieved at the time to be a dangerous and threatening situation.” And the cop won’t go to jail. EVER. > > It might be found that his actions weren’t justified, but as long as the cop says this and keeps on saying it, his actions will NEVER be seen as criminal. [Now who is ignorant?](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/921789/posts) > [@](#): > > A 42-year-old police officer was convicted of second-degree murder in the fatal shooting of a man during an off-duty fight last fall. > > Ronald Robbins, a 15-year veteran of the police department in the Volusia County community of Edgewater, **said he fired his personal .22-caliber pistol as a last resort to save his own life** during a fight with the victim and another man on a Daytona Beach street Sept. 22. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-shoot-airman/342635.md?page=5)