# Cops: We shold be above the law **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 8, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314 "2011-11-08T21:02:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/1 "2011-11-08T21:02:34Z")
This is not one “bad apple” or “rogue,” this is the entire NYPD union lining up to officially state that prosecuting cops for breaking the law is ipso facto unacceptable: > **[Officers Jeer at Arraignment of 16 Colleagues in Ticket-Fixing Investigation...](https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/29/nyregion/officers-unleash-anger-at-ticket-fixing-arraignments-in-the-bronx.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&hp)** > > The stunning display of vitriol at a Bronx courthouse by hundreds of off-duty officers raised concerns about the mind-set of the force. Can anyone keep defending cops when this is how they behave? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/2 "2011-11-08T21:18:08Z")
Yup, cops pretty much assuming they have carte blanch to ignore the law. Not surprising. What does surprise me is the sheer openness of it. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/3 "2011-11-08T21:23:35Z")
This shit makes my blood boil. What’s really depressing is that, as the John Jay College professor interviewed for the article said, an angry police force is a recipe for further problems, because officers have the opportunity and in some cases the inclination to take out their frustrations on the community that they are policing. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/4 "2011-11-08T21:23:48Z")
“During the investigation, overseen by the Bronx district attorney’s office, prosecutors found fixing tickets to be so extensive that they considered charging the union under the state racketeering law as a criminal enterprise, the tactic employed against organized crime families.” That pretty much sums it up right there. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/5 "2011-11-08T23:42:00Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > “During the investigation, overseen by the Bronx district attorney’s office, prosecutors found fixing tickets to be so extensive that they considered charging the union under the state racketeering law as a criminal enterprise, the tactic employed against organized crime families.” > > That pretty much sums it up right there. Well, why the fuck didn’t they go for it?! If it had been ANY other group, thy would have. Bad apples, my ass. It’s the cops who _aren’t_ crooked that are a rarity. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/6 "2011-11-08T23:52:54Z")
Welcome to New York. Damn it. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/7 "2011-11-09T00:09:43Z")
Well Scott Walker, I guess I now agree there’s at least one union chapter that needs it’s collective bargaining eliminated. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/8 "2011-11-09T00:37:00Z")
And this is the same police department that has claimed it has the wherewithal to [shoot down an airplane](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44666835/ns/us_news-security/t/nypd-chief-we-could-take-down-plane-if-necessary/) if they took a notion to! [QUOTE=This [msnbc.com](http://msnbc.com) article] NEW YORK — The New York Police Department could take down a plane if necessary, Commissioner Ray Kelly said Sunday, describing the counter-terror measures he implemented after the Sept. 11 attacks. Kelly decided the city couldn’t rely on the federal government alone after the attacks, he told CBS’ “60 Minutes”. [/quote] This is one bunch of cops that needs to be kept very happy and contented! ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/9 "2011-11-09T01:11:50Z")
They actually had the sheer temerity and gall to parade around with signs proclaiming “Just Following Orders”??!? Yeah, that went over very well in the Nuremberg Trials.\* He who does not remember the past is doomed to repeat it. And fail his history classes in the meanwhile. [\*To be clear, not drawing a parallel to the crimes in question, alleged or not, just the excuse.] ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/10 "2011-11-09T01:18:23Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > They actually had the sheer temerity and gall to parade around with signs proclaiming “Just Following Orders”??!? Then it’s time for the investigation to work it’s way up the chain of command. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/11 "2011-11-09T01:25:34Z")
This isn’t a cop problem at all really (other than that they express their position in more vulgar blue collar ways). This is a union problem. All unions are incipient rackets. All unions rush to the defense of union or union-friendly miscreants, and have no concern about the horrible public perception this creates. The whole **point** of militant unionism is to say “F you, general public, we got ours and we’re not letting go of it.” The whole point is to negotiate contracts where behavior like this can’t and won’t be punished (don’t hold your breath waiting for a single one of those cops to be disciplined for openly advocating illegal activity, policy manual be damned). This is no different, not one bit different, from teachers unionists encouraging their members to pray for Chris Christie to die. Modern union=thugs, likely continuing criminal enterprise. Nothing else to see here, move along. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/12 "2011-11-09T02:04:56Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > This isn’t a cop problem at all really (other than that they express their position in more vulgar blue collar ways). > > This is a union problem. > > All unions are incipient rackets. > > All unions rush to the defense of union or union-friendly miscreants, and have no concern about the horrible public perception this creates. The whole **point** of militant unionism is to say “F you, general public, we got ours and we’re not letting go of it.” The whole point is to negotiate contracts where behavior like this can’t and won’t be punished (don’t hold your breath waiting for a single one of those cops to be disciplined for openly advocating illegal activity, policy manual be damned). > > This is no different, not one bit different, from teachers unionists encouraging their members to pray for Chris Christie to die. > > Modern union=thugs, likely continuing criminal enterprise. Nothing else to see here, move along. Yup, no difference between drug running, assault, intimidation, etc. and teachers clinging to pensions. I’m no fan of most unions, but your post is idiotic. Police have an order of magnitude more power. That changes everything. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/13 "2011-11-09T02:11:27Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Yup, no difference between drug running, assault, intimidation, etc. and teachers clinging to pensions. > > I’m no fan of most unions, but your post is idiotic. Police have an order of magnitude more power. That changes everything. Difference in degree, not really in kind. As for idiotic, the superior power the police have is derived from their weapons and ability to arrest people. In this specific instance of union thuggery, though, they weren’t threatening to shoot the prosecutor for indicting the dirty cops, or threatening to arrest the welfare recipients who chanted anti-cop sentiments. They were rallying to defiantly protest proper discipline being applied to their fellow union member miscreants, and to do their best to shield them from any liability or embarrassment for their misdeeds. In short, exactly what the teachers unions do when they oppose discipline for teachers molesting students, shout death threats about a governor who tries to constrain their consequence-free status, demand contracts where criminal or inept teachers are paid indefinitely to do nothing in rubber rooms. Yep, basically the same thuggish behavior patterns. The fact that the likes of the teamsters and their vowel-friendly affiliates actually take it further and break legs is, again, where the difference of degree, not kind, comes in. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/14 "2011-11-09T02:16:22Z")
Police forces were corrupt long before they were unionized. Let’s not kid ourselves. There was a recent [article](http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_19202813?source=rss_viewed) in the Denver Post that said the new policy of the DPD was to notify supervisors first when they pulled over a cop for drinking & driving. > [@](#): > > According to Rosenthal’s third- quarter report on police and sheriff discipline, scheduled for release today, the chief first agreed to require any officer who stops an off-duty police officer who appears drunk to call a supervisor. The supervisor would have to notify the district commander in writing whether an arrest was made and if not, justify that decision. > > But Whitman then took it a step further. He forwarded a draft directive to Manager of Safety Ashley Kilroy that would apply to stops of all criminal justice employees — cops, firefighters and sheriff’s deputies — and public officials. You’d think a DUI was a DUI, but apprently not. > [@](#): > > Since 2005, Denver police have arrested five fellow officers who were found to be drunk after a collision, he said in his second-quarter police and sheriff discipline and critical-incident report. But none has been arrested solely for driving under the influence. > > At the same time, Denver Police Department​ data show that for about every three of the city’s residents arrested for DUI, there is one resident arrested for a collision in which they were found to be intoxicated. > > Based on the 3-to-1 public arrest ratio, it would make sense that roughly 15 Denver police officers should have been arrested for DUI with no collision, the report said. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/15 "2011-11-09T06:45:12Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > All unions are incipient rackets. No. I’ll wait for you to prove your case. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/16 "2011-11-09T07:16:36Z")
I have to wonder _how_ a union fixes parking tickets. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/17 "2011-11-09T11:21:33Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > This is no different, not one bit different, from teachers unionists encouraging their members to pray for Chris Christie to die. > > Modern union=thugs, likely continuing criminal enterprise. Nothing else to see here, move along. No. While you might find it offensive, unions, and individual members thereof, have every legal right to pray for anyone to die. In this case, the union blatantly argues they should be able to break the law. Huge difference. > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I have to wonder _how_ a union fixes parking tickets. The union argues that its members should be able to fix tickets without legal consequence. Since the union is comprised of police officers, this is a distinction without a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/18 "2011-11-09T12:05:19Z")
I gotta say, I love their choice of defence. “Oh come on, what’s the big deal ? We’ve been doing this for _ages_”. That’s some tone deafness and/or chutzpah. ---
**Author:** ![slumtrimpet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@slumtrimpet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slumtrimpet)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/19 "2011-11-09T12:15:15Z")
Pfft. Anyone who thinks this attitude of “we’re above it” is unique is just naive. I have a friend who’s son is an officer in the CT state police. The step-father told us a story of being stopped for speeding on the interstate by a state cop (CT is notorious for being hard-ass on speeders). He had been given a “business card” from his stepson (along with all the other family members) stating that he was related to a CT State Police officer, but felt awkward (and somewhat ashamed since he had actually been speeding) handing it to the officer when he handed over his license. But then, thinking about it while the officer was doing whatever they do in the patrol car, he decided to show the card to the officer when he returned with the paperwork, at which point he was lectured quite aggressively by the officer who informed him that he should always show the card immediately upon being stopped because now his information had already been radioed in and the officer was obliged to write the ticket. So I guess it’s perfectly okay to break some laws providing you are, or are related to, a police officer, at least in CT, and I’d venture to guess pretty much everywhere else too. (although perhaps other places aren’t sophisticated enough to print out “official” cards indicating such) \*I saw the card. If I remember correctly, it said something along the lines of “this person is related to Officer \_\_\_\_. Please extend him/her the same courtesy that you would extend to me.” (not the exact wording I’m sure, but that’s the gist of it) ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/20 "2011-11-09T12:54:35Z")
I kind of find this whole “scandal” amusing. Is there actually anybody who is surprised to hear that police officers may have “fixed” a few tickets for friends and family? It’s not like this is some sort of super secret clandestine operation involving Tactical Turtlenecks and people crawling through the air ducts. It’s a cop talking to another cop, talking to a clerk, who says “sure, it’s gone.” It’s something that’s been known forever, anybody in or around the department HAS to know it was going on, so it’s a bit ridiculous to “blow the lid off” the scandal and start charging officers with crimes. Nobody needs to go to jail over fixing a ticket, what you do is stop the process now, make it well communicated that it is never to happen again, and put the hammer down on anyone violating the rule. If coverups involve actual criminal behavior, by all means lay down charges. The other reality is that police have discretion in the field, if you’re pulled over for speeding, you are not guaranteed a ticket. The officer has discretion and can let you off with a warning. Thus, being human, they give friends, family, other officers more discretion than the population at large. I’d like that discretion to be less than 100% warnings, but I don’t know how you do that without eliminating discretion entirely. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314.md?page=2)