# Cops: We shold be above the law **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 8, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314 "2011-11-08T21:02:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/21 "2011-11-09T13:00:16Z")
> [@slumtrimpet](#): > > \*I saw the card. If I remember correctly, it said something along the lines of “this person is related to Officer \_\_\_\_. Please extend him/her the same courtesy that you would extend to me.” (not the exact wording I’m sure, but that’s the gist of it) Wow. Really…just wow. “Here, father’s cousin’s sister’s former roommate from college…have a card.” ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/22 "2011-11-09T13:05:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. While you might find it offensive, unions, and individual members thereof, have every legal right to pray for anyone to die. In this case, the union blatantly argues they should be able to break the law. Huge difference. Legally, sure. But asking somebody to murder Chris Christie is still a _moral_ wrong, even if they’re too stupid to ask someone who actually exists. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/23 "2011-11-09T13:14:33Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Legally, sure. But asking somebody to murder Chris Christie is still a _moral_ wrong, even if they’re too stupid to ask someone who actually exists. Have you \*met \*Chris Christie ? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/24 "2011-11-09T13:40:34Z")
edited to remove a posting I have rethought recounting. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/25 "2011-11-09T13:56:56Z")
I don’t really mind the ticket fixing so much as the drug running, larceny, source-revealing, and interfering with an investigation. I, a nobody, have talked my way out of speeding and parking tickets, but I’ve never run cocaine. ---
**Author:** ![Chicagojeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@Chicagojeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicagojeff)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/26 "2011-11-09T14:44:03Z")
[quote=“Huerta88, post:11, topic:602314”] This isn’t a cop problem at all really (other than that they express their position in more vulgar blue collar ways). This is a union problem. All unions are incipient rackets. All unions rush to the defense of union or union-friendly miscreants, and have no concern about the horrible public perception this creates. The whole **point** of militant unionism is to say “F you, general public, we got ours and we’re not letting go of it.” The whole point is to negotiate contracts where behavior like this can’t and won’t be punished (don’t hold your breath waiting for a single one of those cops to be disciplined for openly advocating illegal activity, policy manual be damned). This is no different, not one bit different, from teachers unionists encouraging their members to pray for Chris Christie to die. Okay… so I’m a cop in a right to work state… what problems on the other side of the fence do we encounter. Captain’s new girlfriend gets made Sgt… put in charge of a special operation… guys who have 20+yrs and veterans with leadership told they can’t work the day shift… A completely incompetent rookie who is a danger to all of us is passed through FTO training because his GRANNY use to bang our Deputy Chief… Yeah… Unions are the source of all of the woes… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/27 "2011-11-09T15:16:10Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Legally, sure. But asking somebody to murder Chris Christie is still a _moral_ wrong, even if they’re too stupid to ask someone who actually exists. Hmmm. No, I’d say it’s simply misguided. After all, if the Christian God exists as envisioned, He is the ultimate lawmaker; if He does visit death upon the hapless target of the prayer, then it’s by definition a moral act. And the penitents know this rule, so they’re safe in asking for it: it will occur only if God wishes it to, meaning only if it’s moral. And if He doesn’t exist, then the request is a nullity from the beginning, void _ab initio_. Contrast this with, say, voodoo. If enemies of Chris Christie were stabbing CC dolls with pins in an effort to harm Chris, that would be immoral – they believe their efforts will succeed. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/28 "2011-11-09T15:16:35Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I kind of find this whole “scandal” amusing. Is there actually anybody who is surprised to hear that police officers may have “fixed” a few tickets for friends and family? Sooooo you didn’t read the article at all, did you? > [@](#): > > The unsealed indictments contained more than 1,600 criminal counts, the bulk of them misdemeanors having to do with making tickets disappear as favors for friends, relatives and others with clout. But they also outlined more serious crimes, related both to ticket-fixing and **drugs, grand larceny and unrelated corruption. Four of the officers were charged with helping a man get away with assault.** 1600 counts for 16 officers. Even if every single instance was merely a fixed ticket, that’s way more than “a few tickets.” 100 fixed tickets per officer means they’re not playing the occasional get-out-of-jail-free card, it’s a regular occurrence no matter how long these guys might have been on the force. And it’s not just fixed tickets, if the bolded charges have any merit to them. If all it was was a few fixed tickets, there wouldn’t be a story, because as you say, it’s not all that surprising. This goes way the hell beyond that. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/29 "2011-11-09T15:22:21Z")
How funny that I just read this the other day: [5 Terrible Ideas That Solved Huge Global Problems](http://www.cracked.com/article_19489_5-terrible-ideas-that-solved-huge-global-problems.html). Number 4 is about the firing of every single traffic cop in the nation of Georgia in 2004. Thirty thousand officers got the boot, all at once, leaving no one to police the streets. And…everything was fine. Turned out the cops were the ones causing most of the problems in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/30 "2011-11-09T15:32:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > … > The union argues that its members should be able to fix tickets without legal consequence. Since the union is comprised of police officers, this is a distinction without a difference. A union can take any political stance it wants on behalf of its members. But the article says that prosecutors were considering racketeering charges against it, which to my mind involves some ongoing overt acts. What did they think the union was doing, as opposed to saying? ---
**Author:** ![otternell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecc23a/32.png) [@otternell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/otternell)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/31 "2011-11-09T15:39:31Z")
I’m not too hot and bothered over the ticket fixing. Its not cool, but not in the least bit surprising. Just another benefit for a job that does not pay enough to put your life on the line. However, planting drugs on innocent civilians, and helping someone get away with assault and much worse problems and those concern me greatly. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/32 "2011-11-09T15:48:25Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Sooooo you didn’t read the article at all, did you?1600 counts for 16 officers. Even if every single instance was merely a fixed ticket, that’s way more than “a few tickets.” I’m not saying there aren’t a large number, I’m saying that ticket fixing is not a secret. It also shouldn’t be the slightest bit surprising that ticket fix requests would go to select individuals in the union, if they have the connections to make it happen. In the article, the union president said ticket fixing was “accepted at all ranks for decades”. What should be insulting is the faux outrage by people who are “shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in this establishment”. As to the other charges, of course you prosecute them. I’m not sure if those charges alone would generate the kind of publicity the “ticket fixing” scandal has, but that is obviously criminal conduct and needs to be treated as such. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/33 "2011-11-09T16:31:07Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > No. > > I’ll wait for you to prove your case. It’s structural. Their goal is to manipulate wages upward and (in every case I know of) protect people from discipline/demotion/firing based solely upon union membership and/or seniority (not merit). Now, you can view “capital” as a collective racket trying to manipulate wages downward, but that’s dog bites man, the Marxists made that argument years ago. Understanding that unions are every bit as much a cartel enterprise as the mob with whom they tend to be so closely associated with in the trades (wonder why?) is the man bites dog story. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/34 "2011-11-09T16:35:34Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > What’s really depressing is that, as the John Jay College professor interviewed for the article said, an angry police force is a recipe for further problems, because officers have the opportunity and in some cases the inclination to take out their frustrations on the community that they are policing. Or their immediate families. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/35 "2011-11-09T17:04:55Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’m not saying there aren’t a large number, I’m saying that ticket fixing is not a secret. It also shouldn’t be the slightest bit surprising that ticket fix requests would go to select individuals in the union, if they have the connections to make it happen. In the article, the union president said ticket fixing was “accepted at all ranks for decades”. What should be insulting is the faux outrage by people who are “shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in this establishment”. But it is the degree that matters. Your post tried to minimize it by saying “a few tickets,” and the outrage, at least mine, is primarily along the lines of, “Holy shit, _that many_?” I’m okay, kind of, with cops cutting other cops slack on tickets. I’m willing to overlook cops cutting the immediate families of other cops slack. But “others with clout” is bullshit, and if the cops or their families are screwing up so bad that they regularly need to have their tickets disappeared, then they need to change their behavior. Looking the other way should be done as a favor when the friend or family member accidentally does something once in a blue moon, like going 15 over when they’re late to an appointment or they mistimed a red light. It shouldn’t be carte blanche for them to just ignore the law entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/36 "2011-11-09T17:17:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Hmmm. No, I’d say it’s simply misguided. After all, if the Christian God exists as envisioned, He is the ultimate lawmaker; if He does visit death upon the hapless target of the prayer, then it’s by definition a moral act. And the penitents know this rule, so they’re safe in asking for it: it will occur only if God wishes it to, meaning only if it’s moral. > > And if He doesn’t exist, then the request is a nullity from the beginning, void _ab initio_. > > Contrast this with, say, voodoo. If enemies of Chris Christie were stabbing CC dolls with pins in an effort to harm Chris, that would be immoral – they believe their efforts will succeed. Actually from what I understand real _vodou_ curses are a bit more analogous to your description of the Christian “curse” outlined above–more of a “if the spirit wills it” than “stabbing this doll means I really think you’re going to die.” Anyway [voodoo dolls are largely a fictional invention of outsiders](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voodoo_doll#Myths_and_misconceptions). OK then, what if I wish a Mr. Creosote incident to befall Chris Christie…in other words, that he eats until he bursts–or, less Monty Pythonish, that he be hoist by his own petard? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/37 "2011-11-09T17:25:01Z")
Honestly, the number doesn’t surprise me much either. There are 34,000 cops in NYC, 1,600 fixes means 1 out of every 20 cops has arranged a fix during the timeframe of the investigation. Considering that the attitude was one of professional courtesy, rather than shady dealings, I don’t think that number is weird. In fact, I would expect the number of fixes to be significantly higher, but these are just the fixes associated with the suspects they arrested. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/38 "2011-11-09T17:40:24Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Honestly, the number doesn’t surprise me much either. There are 34,000 cops in NYC, 1,600 fixes means 1 out of every 20 cops has arranged a fix during the timeframe of the investigation. Considering that the attitude was one of professional courtesy, rather than shady dealings, I don’t think that number is weird. In fact, I would expect the number of fixes to be significantly higher, but these are just the fixes associated with the suspects they arrested. So why are the 1600 counts only charged to 16 individuals? ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/39 "2011-11-09T18:21:40Z")
> [@otternell](#): > > I’m not too hot and bothered over the ticket fixing. Its not cool, but not in the least bit surprising. Just another benefit for a job that does not pay enough to put your life on the line. Cops get paid plenty and are not at any great risk. Maybe you want to make commercial fisherman above the law, too? [http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2011/pf/jobs/1108/gallery.dangerous\_jobs/index.html](http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2011/pf/jobs/1108/gallery.dangerous_jobs/index.html) This stupid meme of “we do something dangerous therefore we get to fuck everyone else over” is inane enough on its face even before you realize that the average cop will usually refuse to put his own life in danger to help any non-cop, and statistics bear out that it’s a relatively safe profession. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/40 "2011-11-09T18:30:17Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > So why are the 1600 counts only charged to 16 individuals? I assumed they were contacts that other officers used to make the fixes happen. I could be wrong, and fully assert my right to flip flop if that is the case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314.md?page=3)