# Cops: We shold be above the law **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 8, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314 "2011-11-08T21:02:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/41 "2011-11-09T18:40:13Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I assumed they were contacts that other officers used to make the fixes happen. I could be wrong, and fully assert my right to flip flop if that is the case. Ditto. If those 1600 were spread throughout the force and are the only fixed tickets, then as a percentage it’s definitely very low and not that big a deal. It’s the situation as presented that’s a problem: Right now, it looks like these 16 officers significantly abused their power, and all the other officers are backing their right to do so. If the reality differs, I’m open to correction. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/42 "2011-11-09T21:24:12Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > A union can take any political stance it wants on behalf of its members. But the article says that prosecutors were considering racketeering charges against it, which to my mind involves some ongoing overt acts. What did they think the union was doing, as opposed to saying? As I understand it, for RICO charges it doesn’t have to do anything besides exist as a congregation of people who break the law, order other people to break the law and intimidate people who would blow whistles at all the lawbreaking. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/43 "2011-11-09T21:44:01Z")
When did they order people to break the law? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/44 "2011-11-10T00:31:25Z")
Well the protesters hold up signs saying “Just following orders”, presumably hierarchical superiors have ordered some of them to fix tickets for them (the article goes on to say some of the inducted go up to Lieutenants, so…). Those superiors would themselves be union members, wouldn’t they ? ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/45 "2011-11-10T00:43:53Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Well the protesters hold up signs saying “Just following orders”, presumably hierarchical superiors have ordered some of them to fix tickets for them (the article goes on to say some of the inducted go up to Lieutenants, so…). Those superiors would themselves be union members, wouldn’t they ? Not sure how it works in NYPD. They would certainly be union members, unclear if they’d be members of the exact same union (in some cities, like Chicago, I think lieutenants and captains have separate unions). Obviously they’re all thick as thieves so it may be a distinction without a difference, they’re all unionized. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/46 "2011-11-10T01:22:43Z")
Do you want to know how the NYPD really works? > **[News & Politics - The Village Voice](https://www.villagevoice.com/front/news-and-politics/)** Behold. The Bed Stuy Tapes. One officer had issues with what he was doing. So he got wired. The following series of reports from the Village Voice are backed up with hard evidence. Of course, reading between the lines suggests that the officer was having a nervous breakdown as well. But even assuming that, it’s pretty damning. This is a series of articles. And the first one begins with… > [@](#): > > The NYPD has always claimed that there are no specific numerical targets or quotas. Most recently, police spokesman Paul Browne denied the existence of quotas in early March, but said that “police officers, like others who receive compensation, are provided productivity goals, and they are expected to work.” > > The tapes show, however, that, of course, quotas exist. > > On June 12, 2008, Lieutenant B. relayed the summons target: "The XO [second-in-command] was in the other day. He actually laid down a number. He wants at least three seat belts, one cell phone, and 11 others. All right, so if I was on patrol, I would be sure to get three seat belts, one cell phone, and 11 others. > [@](#): > > During a September 12, 2009, roll call, a fellow cop tells Schoolcraft: "A lot of 61s—if it’s a robbery, they’ll make it a petty larceny. I saw a 61, at T/P/O [time and place of occurrence], a civilian punched in the face, menaced with a gun, and his wallet was removed, and they wrote ‘lost property.’ " > [@](#): > > After a long description of how he does investigations, one of the supervisors says, “You know, I’ve been doing this over eight years. I’ve seen a lot. The lengths people will go to try not to take a report, or not take a report for a seven major [crime]. So nothing surprises me anymore.” > > The supervisor notes such instances can be criminal [falsification of business records], but district attorneys typically “don’t want to touch” cases of officers manipulating statistics. “They’ll give it back to the department to handle it internally,” he says. > > He goes on to note that, yes, precincts do downgrade reports: “We look at grand larceny because, as you know, they don’t want to take the robbery,” he says. “They punch a lady in the face, and they took her pocketbook, but they don’t want to take that robbery, so they’ll make that a grand larceny.” > > Schoolcraft tells the QAD officers that sergeants and lieutenants were berated for taking major crime reports. “Just about all of them, if they work patrol,” he says. "When they come out, they say, ‘It is what it is. It was a robbery—what could I do about it?’ " > > During the meeting, Schoolcraft provides documentation on an incident from December 5, 2008, that was initially taken as an attempted robbery—a teen reported that he was attacked by a gang of thugs who beat him and tried to take his portable video game—and later downgraded by a sergeant to an misdemeanor assault. > > In the meeting, the QAD officers check their computer files and find that, indeed, the incident was classified as a misdemeanor assault. > > Schoolcraft also provides documents from a June 29, 2009, auto theft report, in which the victim came in to obtain the report number, but no report existed. A sergeant told Schoolcraft to do a new report. > [@](#): > > In another incident, an elderly man walked in off the street to report that someone had broken the lock on the cash box in his apartment and had stolen $22,000. When he reported the incident at another precinct, he was told that it was a “civil matter” and to call 3-1-1, the city’s complaint hotline. > [@](#): > > A man walked in to report that he was choked unconscious and robbed of his wallet. He left with a slip that would allow him to renew his driver’s license. Then, a detective came down and said, “If that guy comes back, don’t let him upstairs.” > > - Another downgraded robbery from October 23, 2008: Two officers responded to a robbery and found a guy beaten up and bleeding. A lieutenant responded to the scene and said, “We can’t take this robbery.” It came in as a lost property. Why? No crime, no crime statistic. Statistics go down, officers look good. Mayor is happy. Welcome to New York. There’s no crime. The cops won’t let you report it. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/47 "2011-11-10T01:26:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Hmmm. No, I’d say it’s simply misguided. After all, if the Christian God exists as envisioned, He is the ultimate lawmaker; if He does visit death upon the hapless target of the prayer, then it’s by definition a moral act. And the penitents know this rule, so they’re safe in asking for it: it will occur only if God wishes it to, meaning only if it’s moral. Surely though this is true irregardless of the penitent asking. But i’m surprised that asking for the death of someone, even if that death would be just, is acceptable. Shouldn’t all deaths be mourned? Just because the act itself is moral, doesn’t mean asking for it to occur is. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/48 "2011-11-10T06:21:24Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > This isn’t a cop problem at all really (other than that they express their position in more vulgar blue collar ways). > > This is a union problem. So all unionized employees act this way? Its not a union thing its a cop thing. We as a society vest the police with the police power. They have the right to use force where noone else in our society does. We afford them a certain latitude that we do not afford anyone else in society and they start to think they are a breed apart, the rules (which should apply more strictly to them) actually only apply to them when someone who would rat on a cop is watching. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/49 "2011-11-11T23:08:49Z")
> [@slumtrimpet](#): > > Pfft. Anyone who thinks this attitude of “we’re above it” is unique is just naive. > … > \*I saw the card. If I remember correctly, it said something along the lines of “this person is related to Officer \_\_\_\_. Please extend him/her the same courtesy that you would extend to me.” (not the exact wording I’m sure, but that’s the gist of it) My brother has one from a District Court Judge. He’s been a longtime friend of the judge’s family and did some work on the judge’s computer when it crashed one time. The judge asked if there was anything he could do and my brother said “I want a get out of jail free card” and the judge laughed and said, “I can’t do that, but this might help keep you from going in.” Then he picked up a business card, wrote verbiage very similar to the card you saw on the back of it, signed it, and gave it to my brother. I’m of two minds about this. Cops in general do a pretty thankless job and most speeding/parking tickets are as close to _de minimis non curat lex_ as you can get. I wouldn’t feel the same way about reckless driving, school zone tickets, or DUI, but your typical minor speeding ticket is really a pretty small thing. It’s a very minor harm to society. The perks of being a cop are vastly outweighed by the stress, low pay, and other risks (including death). It’s gotten to the point where, like teaching, the profession is attracting just two kinds of people. Those with a passion for the profession, and those with no other options. That’s not a good recipe for a civil society’s protect and serve branch. This is probably especially true in a city like New York. I’ve heard stories from cops in NYC about how much it sucks to be a cop in NYC. They can’t afford to live where they work, and sometimes work long shifts so they don’t even have time to go home, so they sleep at the office, take a quick shower, then are back out on the street. It’s a pretty crappy job. On the other hand, they’re still citizens, and equal protection under the law is equal protection under the law. The practice of forgiving and canceling offenses committed by officers and their circle of family/friends creates an unequal situation. Equal protection is certainly not _de minimis_. So I’d support a phase out of these kinds of privileges. Especially if it’s coupled with the kind of pay, benefits, and other perks this kind of job really deserves. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/50 "2011-11-11T23:10:42Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > This is not one “bad apple” or “rogue,” this is the entire NYPD union lining up to officially state that prosecuting cops for breaking the law is ipso facto unacceptable: > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/29/nyregion/officers-unleash-anger-at-ticket-fixing-arraignments-in-the-bronx.html?pagewanted=1&\_r=2&hp](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/29/nyregion/officers-unleash-anger-at-ticket-fixing-arraignments-in-the-bronx.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&hp) > > Can anyone keep defending cops when this is how they behave? Above the law??? Oh fuck no. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/51 "2011-11-11T23:14:17Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > This isn’t a cop problem at all really (other than that they express their position in more vulgar blue collar ways). > > This is a union problem. > > All unions are incipient rackets. > > All unions rush to the defense of union or union-friendly miscreants, and have no concern about the horrible public perception this creates. The whole **point** of militant unionism is to say “F you, general public, we got ours and we’re not letting go of it.” The whole point is to negotiate contracts where behavior like this can’t and won’t be punished (don’t hold your breath waiting for a single one of those cops to be disciplined for openly advocating illegal activity, policy manual be damned). > > This is no different, not one bit different, from teachers unionists encouraging their members to pray for Chris Christie to die. > > Modern union=thugs, likely continuing criminal enterprise. Nothing else to see here, move along. Idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314/52 "2011-11-13T18:01:50Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’m not saying there aren’t a large number, I’m saying that ticket fixing is not a secret. It also shouldn’t be the slightest bit surprising that ticket fix requests would go to select individuals in the union, if they have the connections to make it happen. In the article, the union president said ticket fixing was “accepted at all ranks for decades”. What should be insulting is the faux outrage by people who are “shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in this establishment”. > > As to the other charges, of course you prosecute them. I’m not sure if those charges alone would generate the kind of publicity the “ticket fixing” scandal has, but that is obviously criminal conduct and needs to be treated as such. One, It is damn near impossible to park in NYC without getting a ticket. Two, you can pay the fine over the phone but if you come to court and lose the fine will be much higher so you are bullied into just paying it. Three maybe you should read the article. > [@](#): > > Jose R. Ramos, an officer in the 40th Precinct whose suspicious behavior spawned the protracted investigation, was accused of two dozen crimes, including attempted robbery, attempted grand larceny, transporting what he thought was heroin for drug dealers and revealing the identity of a confidential informant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cops-we-shold-be-above-the-law/602314.md?page=2)