# copying cds is it legal if so why and where **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 12, 2002, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254 "2002-12-12T15:29:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254/21 "2002-12-13T01:51:08Z")
> [@](#): > > If I’m interpreting your “shipped with two copies” remark correctly, shea241, how is it not fair that you have to pay for a replacement of your second disc? What if it’s his 1st disk. My personal take on it is that you either own that disk and the data on it or you own the right to use that program. The software industry and music industry for that matter takes the view that you only own the right to use that program. I say that they can’t have it both ways - you own 2 of them so you should be able to replace one of the disks. Just my view on how things should be - it in no way reflects how things really are. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254/22 "2002-12-13T03:32:37Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by shea241_ > **If I was allowed to make a backup copy why do the game companies make their games copy protected in the first place.** So you can’t make a copy and have to buy another one. As has been mentioned, you normally aren’t breaking the law by making a personal backup copy (“for archival purposes only”). However, under the [DMCA](http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/hr2281_dmca_law_19981020_pl105-304.html), it’s illegal to circumvent a copy protection device, _even if it’s legal to copy_ whatever the device is protecting! There are limited exceptions (17 U.S.C. Sec. 1201 (a)(1)(B)) but you basically have to petition the Librarian of Congress to grant you an exception. I suggest you contact your representatives in Congress and ask if they supported the DMCA, and if so, why they felt it was necessary to force you to buy a second copy of this PC game. ---
**Author:** ![Kat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b19c9b/32.png) [@Kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kat)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254/23 "2002-12-13T06:04:57Z")
I wonder why the CD broke after falling from the table to the floor. I took one of those AOL CDs (that they’ve sent me 60 million copies of) outside and _ran it over_ and it was still intact. ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254/24 "2002-12-13T10:18:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by flex727 \* > No, of course not. But, I wonder why not? If I could prove I originally purchased the book, they should be willing to replace it at their cost. Same for CDs and any other material that I purchase. Why is it the store’s problem? Accident or not, it was your fault that the book was lost. Why should anyone but me have to take responsibility for the lost book? By your reasoning, I could purchase clothes, light them on fire with a cigarette, and then expect the store to replace them for me for free. A better analogy: Bob goes to the bookstore and buys a book. Upon returning home and inspecting his purchase, he finds that he actually has two copies of the book, though he only paid for one. He reads one copy of the book (Book 1), and lends the other (Book 2) to his friend. One day, Book 2 gets dropped and all text smears and the book is left unreadable. Is Bob entitled to march back into the bookstore and ask that Book 2 be replaced for free? Does the bookstore owe him a replacement? Technically, Bob _could_ go back to the store with his receipt and Book 2 and say, “This book I bought is defective; can you replace it?” and get away with it. However, it’d be ethically improper for him to do so, because he still has Book 1 at home and _has not truly lost anything._ If he were to demand a replacement for Book 2, which he never had to pay for, he’d be cheating the bookstore out of the cost of that book. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by k2dave \* > What if it’s his 1st disk. It doesn’t matter which disc it is. He paid for one copy of the game. By accident, the box was packed with a second disc. Essentially, he got a copy of the game for free. Now, the free disc has broken. However, he is not entitled to a free or cheap replacement, as he never paid for this second disc in the first place. He is not entitled to a replacement because he has not lost anything he legitimately owns. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by k2dave \* > I say that they can’t have it both ways - you own 2 of them so you should be able to replace one of the disks Except he doesn’t own both discs. He purchased one copy and got two discs by accident. That this second disc is now broken in no way interferes his ability to enjoy the game, as he still has his legitimately obtained copy. He did not pay for the second disc. Therefore, he should not expect that it be replaced at someone else’s expense. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254/25 "2002-12-13T12:07:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by flex727 \* > \*\*No, of course not. But, I wonder why not? If I could prove I originally purchased the book, they should be willing to replace it at their cost. Same for CDs and any other material that I purchase that is only granting me a limited license. \*\* Are you serious? This is akin to “I wrecked my car, and thus Ford should give me a new one, at their cost”. Note that in sailor’s example of the book being dropped overboard, there is a difference - replacement of the book by the publisher requires an actual tangible loss of money to them. Allowing a person to have a backup copy of a CD which they legally purchased results in no tangible loss of income to the publisher, since the end-user takes on the labor and materials of the CD copying themselves. This assumes, of course, that it is a legal backup copy. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254/26 "2002-12-13T14:38:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr2001 \* > \*\*So you can’t make a copy and have to buy another one. > > As has been mentioned, you normally aren’t breaking the law by making a personal backup copy (“for archival purposes only”). However, under the [DMCA](http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/hr2281_dmca_law_19981020_pl105-304.html), it’s illegal to circumvent a copy protection device, _even if it’s legal to copy_ whatever the device is protecting! > > There are limited exceptions (17 U.S.C. Sec. 1201 (a)(1)(B)) but you basically have to petition the Librarian of Congress to grant you an exception. > > I suggest you contact your representatives in Congress and ask if they supported the DMCA, and if so, why they felt it was necessary to force you to buy a second copy of this PC game. \*\* So what if you just make a disc image? This would copy the CD without circumventing, as the copy protection would still be there. Anyway, the DMCA is an asinine law and will be shot down sooner or later by the courts. I can imagine the ACLU’s saliviating over this one. ---
**Author:** ![shea241](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@shea241](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shea241)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254/27 "2002-12-13T20:35:38Z")
Ok the game is command and conquer and your supposed to have two disks thats how it is packeged so yes I have lost a disk the allied disk. The reason I say that maybe they should replace the disk is because it feel four feet from my desk to the floor. There must have been something wrong with it if it cracked like that. Thats like if I droped my sneaker and it fell apart when it landed on the floor. No It’s not the companies fault that the sneaker fell out of my hand but something must have been defective… so they should replace it. CD’s are “supposed” to be durable. I’ve done a lot worse to CD’s and they have not broken before. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254/28 "2002-12-14T00:28:46Z")
> [@](#): > > However, under the DMCA, it’s illegal to circumvent a copy protection device, even if it’s legal to copy whatever the device is protecting! As exact copy should not have circumvented anything, all copy protecting should be copied to the new disk if you do it right. Also I took the OP as it came with 2 CD’s because it was suppose to (not an error). ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254/29 "2002-12-14T01:21:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by k2dave \* > **As exact copy should not have circumvented anything, all copy protecting should be copied to the new disk if you do it right.** Well, the device (SecuRom, SafeDisc, whatever) is intended to keep you from copying the disc. By using a tool that gets around the protection, you have circumvented the protection. Whether the protection is trivial or not is beside the point–first because the law is unclear, and second because the DMCA is all about intimidation. You could encrypt your posts with Pig Latin (which you could claim is “a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work” [Sec. 1201 (a)(1)(A)]) and threaten DMCA suits against anyone who decrypts them, if you had the money and lawyers that companies like Adobe have. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254/30 "2002-12-14T01:59:07Z")
Remember, under the DMCA, a Sharpie is a copyprotect-circumvintion device. ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254/31 "2002-12-14T10:15:04Z")
I realize the saga of your discs has little to do with your question. But: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by shea241_ > In his OP: > I have a pc game that I like which luckly for me is shiped with two copies. > > In his last post: > Ok the game is command and conquer and your supposed to have two disks it sounds to me like you’re changing the story. In your first post, I thought you were saying that you got a game that installed using one disc, except in your box, there were two of the same installation disc. But now you’re saying that the game requires two discs for installation and that the two discs you were talking about are, in fact, different. If that’s true, why did you originally say there were “two copies” of the disc? Two copies, after all, means that you got two of the _exact same disc_. That you used the word “luckily” to describe it reinforces my original conclusion. You wouldn’t be lucky to get two different discs if you were supposed to get two different discs anyway. You would only be lucky if you accidentally got two exact copies of a game install disc instead of one. Furthermore, if the discs are different, how does a CD burner help you? A CD burner would in fact be useless to you, as the disc you need to copy is broken. So what’s the real story? ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254/32 "2002-12-14T11:25:25Z")
You’re boned. Command and Conquer has two separate discs that both function independantly of each other. You can play a muliplayer game from either disc but if you want to play a single player game each disc has the files needed for only one playable side. That’s just for anyone who didn’t know. Anyway, your best bet would be to just suck it up and buy a new copy – if you can find one. Since the game’s been out for a while now a new copy will be very cheap. Any shop that is still trying to get full price for it (around 50 bucks Canadian IIRC) is ripping you off. I bought Myth 3 the other day for $20 Australian, or about 10 bucks US and that’s a game that came out a lot more recently. If you do want to go through Westwood I found their customer support to be excellent – when I did a big move last year I threw out all my CD cases to save room. Stupidly I didn’t notice that I had thrown out all my CD-Key’s with them. When I contacted them about not having a CD key for C&C anymore they just sent me out a new one via e-mail without requiring me to prove ownership. In contrast Sierra wanted me to send in my Half-life CD as proof. That’s just some anecdotal evidence to show that they should treat you right :). ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254/33 "2002-12-14T14:06:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr2001 \* > As has been mentioned, you normally aren’t breaking the law by making a personal backup copy (“for archival purposes only”). However, under the [DMCA](http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/hr2281_dmca_law_19981020_pl105-304.html), it’s illegal to circumvent a copy protection device, _even if it’s legal to copy_ whatever the device is protecting! Not if the CD is not protected. Also, as I pointed out, civil right groups are waiting to pounce on a case like this. ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254/34 "2002-12-14T14:14:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AudreyK \* > If I’m interpreting your “shipped with two copies” remark correctly, **shea241** , how is it not fair that you have to pay for a replacement of your second disc? You got something for nothing, a something you would ordinarily have to pay for. If something unfair happened, it was against the software company, not you. They lost out on the money they could have gotten for that duplicate disc. > > You got a second copy of the disc by accident-- that was luck, true. Good for you. But now you’re expecting your free duplicate to be replaced at low or no cost to you. Why? You never really bought it in the first place. Why should it be replaced inexpensively? According to what or whom that he never bought it in the first place? If the disc was in the package he paid for, obviously he bought it. For example, I found a copy of _People’s General_ in one of the games I bought. Did I pay for it? Hell yes. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AudreyK \* > Also, I’m almost certain it’s a violation of the EULA to share CDs with your apartment friend. How is that so? First of all, EULA are generally considered coercive and not legit agreements, because the buyer never had a chance to negotiate his own terms. Secondly, unless it happens that there is a sealed envelope that contains both discs and the mumblejumble specificially forbid the use of a second original disc found in the package, how is it illegal? ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254/35 "2002-12-14T14:17:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > Are you serious? This is akin to “I wrecked my car, and thus Ford should give me a new one, at their cost”. This is different. First of all, the program wasn’t wrecked, it was the container of the program that was. Thus your analogy does not hold. Secondly, according to the software industry, you don’t pay for your copy, merely the use of it. Combining the two reasons, I don’t see why the publisher is not required to ship replacements. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254/36 "2002-12-14T15:26:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > **A CD broke in half after falling a couple of feet? Do you live on Jupiter or something?** I’ve seen CDs crack from temperature changes, and from being dropped about 4 feet onto concrete. > [@](#): > > \*\*The “use for 24 hours then delete” line is hokum. \*\* True. It’s become one of the most prevelant “Net legends” amongst pirates. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254/37 "2002-12-14T15:35:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Urban Ranger \* > **This is different. First of all, the program wasn’t wrecked, it was the container of the program that was. Thus your analogy does not hold. Secondly, according to the software industry, you don’t pay for your copy, merely the use of it.** Why did you not read my post at all? I was referring to the analogy of the **physical item** (the book) not being worthy of a replacement. And later on, I said: > [@](#): > > Note that in sailor’s example of the book being dropped overboard, there is a difference - replacement of the book by the publisher requires an actual tangible loss of money to them. **Allowing a person to have a backup copy of a CD which they legally purchased results in no tangible loss of income to the publisher, since the end-user takes on the labor and materials of the CD copying themselves.** This assumes, of course, that it is a legal backup copy. (emphasis added) I said that the replacement of the book analogy was different, because it was a physical item that itself was the commodity. And that allowing the end User to replace the legally purchased program with a backup results in no tangible loss to the publisher. In other words, I supported your point 100% as far as I can tell (excepting that I don’t think the publisher should be required to send a new CD pro bono, but should be allowed to charge a shipping and handling and material charge. Else allow password-protected free download from their site. But I didn’t say that earlier, so you could not have had a disagreement with it.) What is the real story here, anyhow? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254/38 "2002-12-14T15:37:39Z")
“Remember, under the DMCA, a Sharpie is a copyprotect-circumvintion device.” So then would be your computer & operating system, which can make copies of stuff 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254/39 "2002-12-15T11:40:18Z")
Thanks for the explanation, **Silentgoldfish**. I didn’t know how the game’s install discs worked. However, it stil doesn’t make sense. In that situation, a CD burner still wouldn’t do you any good, and again, he wouldn’t call himself “lucky” for getting two discs he was supposed to get anyway. Eh, I’m dropping the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254/40 "2002-12-15T14:28:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RealityChuck \* > \*\*Nope. The law does not give any individual the right to make backups. Only a _library_ can do so legally (see section 108 of the copyright law). > > It’s the _copying_ that’s a copyright violation (copy+right = right to make copies. If you don’t have the copy right, you don’t have the right to make copies.). Selling them is irrelevant. > > However, some software does grant you the right to make an archive as part of their EULA. You’d have to check that. \*\* Nope, sorry, but back-up copies are sanctioned by fair-use rights. Two of the key concepts of fair-use are time-shifting and space-shifting. Making a copy is merely space-shifting, and as long as it’s done for personal use only it is perfectly within the bounds of fair use. UnuMondo [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/copying-cds-is-it-legal-if-so-why-and-where/142254.md?page=3)