copyright Chicago Reader 2003

Bottom line: We, the posters, retain copyright to our works posted here. By the very act of posting, we grant the Chicago Reader a nonexclusive copyright to anything posted here.

If I were lucky enough to get a book contract, and wanted to quote one comment by one poster as a tag line to a chapter or as evidence of how, say, a gay teenager from Australia thinks about a given issue, I’d e-mail that poster requesting permission to quote his material.

If I were out to do a particular study (which I would intend be published) and wished to use the membership here as sources of data for that study, by asking extended questions and retaining the answers for use in my published work, I would be making use of the message board for a purpose that it has not been licensed to me as a member to use it for. I would therefore have to get permission from the Chicago Readernot from any of the moderators or administrators, except as go-betweens between me and the Reader management – before I undertook to do so. (Exception: Ed Zotti is on the Reader staff; if he formally granted permission, he would be doing it with his “Reader-staff” hat on, not his "board-administrator hat.)

Does that accurately summarize the position?

Why is this a problem?

That’s more of a GD thing, UncleBeer, I’ll just… :smiley:

Despite your First Amendment - which as I understand it deals with government and free speech - there are people who don’t believe that “it’s private property” is a complete answer to questions regarding free speech. In my country, where there is no Bill of Rights, the issue of balancing freedom of expression with other rights and obligations is not solely or even primarily concerned with government - it revolves around more general notions of power.

This isn’t meant as any sort of criticism of these boards’ running, but merely as an answer to UncleBeer. RTFirefly may have meant something entirely different.

You didn’t shut it off on purpose, to demonstrate what a value it is to have access to this board? :dubious:
:smiley: Take your time.

Of course I still support the removal of advertisements, porn links, and such - it’s clearly stated in the rules what is not allowed. Other unwelcome threads like those about drugs usually get closed, but not deleted unless the content itself is illegal. In comparison to this the complete removal of this particular thread seems rather hard to me and leaves an odd feeling.

Tris,Poly, The IMHO forum description explicitly allows it to be used for polling, it’s not out of the ordinary to post a survey there. It’s not apparent from the CR’s rules that threads in which members negotiate their copyrights between themselves in advance are less wanted than other threads. It’s a completely different matter from a copyright violation, since it doesn’t touch the CR’s rights. Every use of this board is more or less for a personal purpose. “What should you write to sell a house for the highest price?” It implies that you will use the answers to print an ad, is selfish, involves money, but it even might be in General Questions.

That sure as hell isn’t saying that they can’t determine what we may do with their board. If we want them to still like us afterwards, then we have to ask first when there’s any doubt if a post could be morally or legally dubious, too commercial, too egoistic, or just not wanted for reasons that we don’t have to know.

But the rules seemed clear enough, and they are there so that we don’t have to get the Chicago Reader’s written permission for each and every single post. I’m still not sure if I understand exactly what substatique did wrong here.

The issue as I see it, femtosecond, is that you, as a poster, has no right to enforce the disclaimer “by posting in here you grant me to use your information” on me as another poster. The Chicago Reader, as owner of the message board, has that right, so you would need to get their permission first. I think that’s what Polycarp is saying as well.

To tell the truth, I don’t know if such a disclaimer could be legal, even if the CR would approve it. It wouldn’t enforce the transfer of rights on other posters though, since any refusal posted in that thread would have precedence, and you may choose not to post at all in it.

One could argue that it wouldn’t be valid, because people are not legally required to read the first post of a thread. But then this also would invalidate any permission granted by the CR to another poster, I’d think. Their disclaimer appears on every page and you can’t deny knowledge, but in it we grant the CR and its assigns the nonexclusive right to re-use our postings in any manner they see fit. It doesn’t say they may transfer our rights to third parties, we still have them. Can the Chicago Reader, Inc. make a student newspaper in Canada an assign of it by allowing one of the authors to use a post?

In case nobody caught what TubaDiva said way back when in this thread, nobody’s saying that you can’t start a thread asking questions with an intent to publish the results – she said that the Reader wants to be able to give prior permission – or refuse it – in such a circumstance.

Y’all have been doing so great I haven’t had to say anything!

Thank you very much!

And yes, y’all got my meaning. Well, most of you.

your humble TubaDiva
Administrator

I read her replies as that any publication itself would depend on prior permission from the Reader if it involves other people’s posts. It even confused Achernar. Especially “and permission under copyright is secured from the Reader” could suggest that copyright is an issue, apart from the permission to use the board, and that they may do more than to give up their own claims.

Hair-splitting, I know. And I’m not even a lawyer. :slight_smile:

Was he a BAD Bad Astronomer when he used the board to ask us for suggestions about which movies he should review on a TV show? I recall seeing several threads in which posters stated that they work on a book and asked for suggestions. Should we report them to a moderator or may we post answers to them? Would the OP be in greater trouble if someone explicitly offered a paragraph to reproduce?

Does this apply to non-members too, and does it annoy you that whoever asked Triskadecamus didn’t notify you?

Would I make myself unpopular with the management if I declare all my posts public domain without telling them? If other people knew it, would you still want them to tell you if they use my posts elsewhere? If I then answered a question, would it make you suspicious of the OP?

How much of another member’s post may I quote in my own posts before I need permission from the CR?

Femtosecond, if I may be so bold, the object of the game here, as in the basic rule “Don’t be a jerk” not spelling out what constitutes felonious jerkitude is, “Use your common sense.”

First, you can by the workings of the software they chose to use quote all or any part of another member’s post in your own, without any permission from the C.R. – because you’re quoting intellectual property on which they have a non-restrictive copyright in a document (your post) in which they have a non-restrictive copyright. And second, because they have that non-restrictive copyright, if you were to declare your posts “public domain,” what that would mean is that if I decided to publish “The Complete Works of Femtosecond” I would not need your permission – but I would still need theirs.

Third, catch the difference between casual and single quotations used incidentally off this board, and the intentional and thorough harvesting of material on the board used for the profit of the harvester. There’s a reason for the “fair use” provisions of copyright law, and that targets it.

I’m an Administrator and regular poster on the Pizza Parlor, and a member over on the Unaboard. If something tomndebb said here on Catholicism was useful in clarifying questions raised over in the Pizza Parlor, I’d have no qualms about quoting him, perhaps several paragraphs of his post, for that purpose – that constitutes “fair use” of his post, and the Reader is not going to object to my doing so. Likewise if a Cafe Society discussion on LOTR contains material that might illuminate a discussion going on in the Tolkien thread on the Unaboard, I’d feel it entirely appropriate to make the quote. (In each case, by the way, I’d link back to the SDMB thread from which I’d extracted the quote.)

On the other hand, if I decided to write a book on the varied understandings of Christianity about the phenomenon of homosexuality and gay people’s consequent reaction to Christianity as an institution (which is in fact something I’ve contemplated), I’d find a wealth of material in the interminable series of Great Debates threads dealing with this – and prior to setting finger to keyboard to begin that book, I’d get into a long discussion with Ed Zotti and, through him, with the Reader legal staff, to determine exactly what they would feel acceptable to quote and under what terms. That extensive “mining” of a data resource does not constitute “fair use,” and I’d expect that my publisher (if and when I got one) would pay the Reader royalties for using material from the board. (And, of course, I’d seek releases from all posters I could make contact with that I wanted to quote from, for use of their words.)

IMHO, whatever is asked on the board following the guidelines of the membership agreement and the material posted by the administration here is acceptable until and unless a moderator or administrator objects to it – The Bad Astronomer is a resource for this board, they know it, and if he did something that might not have been acceptable by a 16-year-old working on an article for his school newspaper, that’s a bit of less-than-even-justice that you’re going to have to put up with. I know I’d be absolutely thrilled, rather than offended, if a (hypothetical) comment I made about a vintage-1935 movie was quoted by Eve in a biography of the female lead in that movie. Bottom line: if something looks like a violation of the working rules, it’s up to an Admin. or Mod. to challenge it; if it offends a poster bad enough or seems questionable under the rules, he or she should “report the post to a Mod.” and leave it to them to make the necessary judgment call.
The common law followed in our courts has the legal abstraction called “the reasonable man” – and a maxim De minimis non curat lex – I think the rule here is, * De minimis quotatiendo non curat Lector Chicagoensis*, and the “reasonable man” can tell the difference between minor and casual fair use and extensive, abusive non-fair use. While the law does not require any person to be a “reasonable man,” it does expect him to act as “a reasonable man” might act. That I might drive my car across your lawn next door to my house to get my wife, who has cut herself and is bleeding from a major artery, to the hospital while the new neighbors have my driveway blocked with their moving van, does not give me permission to do figure-8s on your lawn because I feel like it next week – if you tried to prosecute me for trespass on the emergency, you’d be laughed out of court; if I tried to use that as justification for digging up your lawn later, I’d stand justly condemned. The same principle applies here – minimal and reasonable use doesn’t require any special permission; extensive and/or for-profit use probably does.

Now this is the part that confused me, and I guess still confuses me. I can understand that they wouldn’t want you to go through and systematically seek out my posts and distribute them somewhere, but that’s more of a bandwidth issue than a copyright issue. So suppose that over the years, every time I’ve made a post, I’ve also copied it and saved it as I went along, so there’s no bandwidth issue; I’ve already got the text saved. Am I allowed to:

  1. Republish and repost what I have? Seems like it, given the agreement.
  2. Give someone else permission to take what I have, and publish it, without consulting the Reader? Seems like it to me, given TubaDiva’s comment.
  3. Declare it public domain, put it up on my webpage, and say that anyone can publish it anytime, anywhere they want? Seems like not, given what Polycarp just said, but how is this different from #2?

My humble understanding (TUBADIVA will ream me and correct me if I]'m wrong) is that you retain the rights to your own posts. You can republish them, you can give someone permission to use them, and you can declare them public domain. The latter permissions had better be clear, written documents – they could be used as evidence in court later, God forbid.

When someone wants to quote from many many posters in a survey being taken on the boards, however, it is not sufficient merely to have the permissions from each of the posters. Yes, you must get each individual’s permission (a blanket statement of “anyone posting to this thread agrees…” won’t do it.) But you also need READER approval, because the whole survey was undertaken on the READER’s website. This is a case where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

That make sense to y’all?

Achernar, your third alternative is not germane to the problem at hand, because you as the author retain the rights to make any use of the content of your pits you see fit, subject to the specific rights reserved by the Reader to material on this board. By creating a website with your posts on it, you’ve made it possible for people to quote your material without accessing the SDMB. You can make the material on your website public domain or charge the readers $1,000 a crack to read your deathless prose, as you see fit, or anything in between – the one thing you may not do is to refuse the Chicago Reader permission to reprint your material that appeared on their board.

It’s your work; you retain copyright (or release it if you see fit). Effectively, by posting it here you’re giving the Reader a license to reprint it as they see fit, in exchange for the privilege of using their message board for the sort of dialogue we conduct here.

If you want to use their board for anything else than the sorts of dialogue already in place, you need to get prior permission, regardless if it’s “kind of like something we already do” – assault with a switchblade is “kind of like” surgery, but not enough so to justify that as a defense! If I’m idly curious as to who likes the work of E.R. Eddison, I can start a Cafe Society thread about that; if I’m compiling a fantasy anthology and want quotes about his work, and start the same thread with the intent of harvesting the results, I’d probably better clear that idea with the Reader’s legal people before I start it.

(Trying not to speak as a “junior moderator” in all of this, but to convey to people who obviously aren’t getting it my (I think clear) understanding of the distinction that staff is making – sorry to anyone if it sounded like I’m making rules!)

Oops, I see that my file from which I quoted is old. It was updated. The current relevant quote from the registration agreement is

It’s clearer that the SDMB isn’t just a communication medium and that we grant the CR publication rights which they may defend.

There’s even no need to suppose that for me! I actually do it and save a local copy of each thread in which I participated. Of course I would have to edit out any content that doesn’t belong to me before I publish something, but there you go. :slight_smile:

Polycarp, unfortunately, until this thread my common sense would have told me that a proper procedure to ask for any unusual use of this board would be to start a thread in ATMB, and wait for a moderator’s reply to see if they object that it’s necessary to bother a higher being. I did not know that an interview thread is an exception to this.

I brought up the quoting question because it directly depends on whose rights they are. Ironically this is one of the rare occasions when the term “fair use” is not the source of confusion. From the registration agreement:

So strictly speaking, only administrators and moderators (assigns of the CR) always may quote another poster’s whole posts, as they have the right to re-use them anywhere (including third person’s posts or their own ones). However my quote of poster X must not exceed fair use, as neither I nor the operator of the SDMB own the copyright to X’s posts. X could deny me the right (or worse), unless I have asked the CR if they extend their rights to re-use his post to my quote. Retroactive even, but they may refuse, so I’m required to ask. Right?

Sense? Legal-stuff? No. :smiley: