# Corbyn Labour leadership the disaster everybody knew it would be **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 27, 2015, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698 "2015-11-27T09:50:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698/181 "2016-07-21T12:57:04Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’ve got to disagree. Thatcher was touted as a possible leader immediately after the October 74 election. Her major challengers - or rather, those who would have been her major challengers - made spectacular blunders which ruled them out of the running. Powell had gone after his Rivers of Blood speech, Keith Joseph made a speech referring to the lower orders overbreeding, etc. The other significant right-winger, Du Cann, chose to not stand against her, so the right wing of the Tories was united behind her. Her enemies’ attempt to smear her badly backfired. Even then, it was a close-run thing: 130 votes to Heath’s 119. Sorry - that’s kind of what I was getting at when I said her other challengers flapped about and failed to stand. It’s a similar story to May. She may well have been able to defeat all comers in a full contest - we’ll never know - but in the event, she didn’t have to. Gove took Boris out, Fox was never serious, Crabb was an outside shot who got blown up by a sex-scandal and Leadsom dug herself a hole, filled it with sharpened sticks and dove in head first. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698/182 "2016-07-21T13:00:04Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > It’s a similar story to May. She may well have been able to defeat all comers in a full contest - we’ll never know - but in the event, she didn’t have to. Gove took Boris out, Fox was never serious, Crabb was an outside shot who got blown up by a sex-scandal and Leadsom dug herself a hole, filled it with sharpened sticks and dove in head first. I can’t argue with you about May. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698/183 "2016-07-24T02:15:08Z")
Following a review, there will be a change of electoral boundaries in 2018. Corbyn wants all sitting Labour MPs to then [face a re-selection process by local Party members](http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-reselection-mps_uk_5790bdf4e4b0e3583c789582). With 80% of his own MPs no longer having confidence in him, it looks as though his plan is to have them replaced with a new cadre of loyalists. Since he has stronger support at grass-roots level than in the higher Labour Party echelons, he has a good chance of success with this strategy. It is speculated that this could lead to a break-up of the Labour Party. It also means that I think it’s likely that he believes he’ll be Labour leader in 2018 and then going into the next General Election in 2020. Since the leadership contest between him and Owen Smith is voted on by all Labour Party members, there is a strong likelihood that this will be the case. After a couple of decades of centrist politics, both of the big British political parties are moving away from the political middle ground. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698/184 "2016-07-24T04:14:24Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > …By contrast, the Tory party was just as hard for women to get into, but once there women were less likely to see themselves as champions for women within and without the party, and more likely to follow their own ambition. As a result, the Tory party still has fewer women MPs than Labour but the ones that fight to the top cannot be dismissed as relying on quotas or tokenism, and have done the “proper” jobs. > > For example, Thatcher’s rise to the top: she was a junior minister; Heath was an unpopular leader. In the ordinary way of things, the old boys network at the heart of the Tory party would have taken soundings over the port, lined up a successor and duly presented Heath with the proverbial whisky and revolver. But what actually happened is that Thatcher launched a challenge, the other potential challengers flapped about and failed to stand, and she won the votes of those who wanted change. Her victory relied a lot on bypassing existing party power structures and going for it herself, (well, with a couple of strong allies) rather than working the system from within. And then Thatcher, much to her discredit, did nothing to groom or promote women within the party once she was PM. I’m not sure she even had any other women in the Cabinet by the time she was ousted. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698/185 "2016-07-24T10:44:21Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > And then Thatcher, much to her discredit, did nothing to groom or promote women within the party once she was PM. I’m not sure she even had any other women in the Cabinet by the time she was ousted. You’ve missed [Baroness Young](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_Young,_Baroness_Young). And why should she have preferentially groomed women? That would have been sexist. AFAIAA she didn’t groom men either. And you might care to visit [this Wiki page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Thatcher_ministers_1979%E2%80%9390) which lists her ministers, with many women in lower, Ministerial, positions. [John Major](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_ministry) had Gillian Shephard and Virginia Bottomley as Cabinet Members, again with many women in Ministerial positions. Hague appointed May to his Shadow Cabinet and the rest, as they say, is history. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698/186 "2016-07-24T12:58:22Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > After a couple of decades of centrist politics, both of the big British political parties are moving away from the political middle ground. WTF are you talking about; Theresa May has just erected the biggest centre ground tent we’ve seen since Blair was a candidate. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698/187 "2016-07-24T13:00:46Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > And then Thatcher, much to her discredit, did nothing to groom or promote women within the party once she was PM. I’m not sure she even had any other women in the Cabinet by the time she was ousted. It is no discredit to Thatcher at all. The record of females within the Tory Party has been just about acceptable. Female progress in the Party has not been great but neither has it been a disaster. In other words women have done fine by themselves without the help of Mrs T. In fact I would go as far to say Tory females politicians have generally proven themselves more professional than those in the Labour Party who were given a leg-up the ladder. I mean the Tory Party aren’t entirely full of heavy hitting politicians, but the Tories look Churchillian in comparison to the current Labour lot. There must be some reason the most recent Labour leadership candidates include non-entities the likes of Jeremy Corbyn, Yvette Cooper, Liz Kendall, Andy Burnham, Angela Eagle and Owen bloody Smith. Yvette Cooper and Burnham are probably the only semi-competent amongst them. All female shortlists & positive discrimination have imo partly led to this dearth of talent within the Labour ranks. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698/188 "2016-07-24T13:03:14Z")
I hoped Dan Jarvis would stand this time. Maybe next time … ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698/189 "2016-07-24T14:19:16Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > WTF are you talking about; Theresa May has just erected the biggest centre ground tent we’ve seen since Blair was a candidate. I would place Theresa May to the right of David Cameron, she’s there on an anti-immigration mandate and I can’t see that there would be any chance whatsoever of the Liberal Democrats, were they still a force, being willing to form a coalition with them. How on Earth do you see recent developments in the Conservative Party as a move towards the centre? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698/190 "2016-07-24T15:19:11Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > I would place Theresa May to the right of David Cameron, she’s there on an anti-immigration mandate Since when does that make her right-wing? UKIP’s now the home of disgruntled Labour voters. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698/191 "2016-07-24T16:21:44Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > I would place Theresa May to the right of David Cameron, she’s there on an anti-immigration mandate and I can’t see that there would be any chance whatsoever of the Liberal Democrats, were they still a force, being willing to form a coalition with them. > > How on Earth do you see recent developments in the Conservative Party as a move towards the centre? 😕 I think you are seriously, seriously misreading. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698/192 "2016-07-24T17:36:05Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > I think you are seriously, seriously misreading. You still haven’t answered my question. I can’t see any argument you can make to support your statement whatsoever. UKIP are viewed as being to the [right of the Conservatives on the UK political spectrum](http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/8182/Left-Right2-01.png). The referendum result endorsed UKIP’s principal aim and the Conservatives have now adopted that as their mainstream policy. Here are the percentage of people who voted for Brexit broken down by their political persuasion, from left to right on the political spectrum. Green Party: 25% Labour: 37% Liberal Democrats: 30% Conservative: 58% UKIP: 96% > [@Quartz](#): > > Since when does that make her right-wing? UKIP’s now the home of disgruntled Labour voters. The political spectrum [is a horseshoe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory). The Nazi Party emerged from the German Workers’ Party and their official name was the National Socialist German Workers’ Party. Surely you are aware of the link between anti-immigration rhetoric and the (far-)right? Wikipedia’s definition of “[far-right politics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics)”: > [@](#): > > The term, “far-right” has been used to describe right-wing populist ideologies known for opposition to mass immigration and nationalism, in addition to being applied to neo-fascists and Neo-Nazis. Charles Grant, director of the Centre for European Reform in London, distinguished between right-wing nationalist parties often described as “far-right”, such as National Front in France, and fascism. Major elements of fascism have been deemed clearly far-right, such as its belief that supposedly superior people have the right to dominate society while purging allegedly inferior elements, and—in the case of Nazism—genocide of people deemed to be inferior. From Wikipedia’s page on [right-wing populism in the United Kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_populism#United_Kingdom): > [@](#): > > The largest right-wing populist party in the United Kingdom is the UK Independence Party (UKIP). Advocating an exit from the European Union and a points-based immigration system similar to that used in Australia. > > The UK’s governing Conservative Party has seen defections to UKIP over the European Union and immigration debates, as well as same-sex marriage. Former Mayor of London Boris Johnson has been criticized for using right-wing populist views during the Brexit Vote Leave campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698/193 "2016-07-24T20:08:09Z")
A circular argument is a bad argument. Just because Wikipedia says that immigration is a right-wing issue does not make it true. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698/194 "2016-07-25T03:30:47Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > You’ve missed [Baroness Young](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_Young,_Baroness_Young)… For Thatcher to have delighted in saying so often “If you want something said, get a man; if you want something done, get a woman,” and then to have appointed so few women to any position of prominence, and only a single one to the Cabinet in more than 11 years as PM, does not speak well of her. IMHO it’s hard to believe she could have found no others of merit. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698/195 "2016-07-25T10:07:56Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > For Thatcher to have delighted in saying so often “If you want something said, get a man; if you want something done, get a woman,” and then to have appointed so few women to any position of prominence, and only a single one to the Cabinet in more than 11 years as PM, does not speak well of her. IMHO it’s hard to believe she could have found no others of merit. There were many women in ministerial positions. Apparently none of them were good enough to step up to the Cabinet. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698/196 "2016-07-25T15:35:20Z")
In 11 years? The mind boggles. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698/197 "2016-07-26T06:36:50Z")
In fairness, during those same eleven years there were only four female members of the Labour Shadow Cabinet and never more than two in it at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698/198 "2016-07-26T13:35:33Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Just because Wikipedia says that immigration is a right-wing issue does not make it true. Indeed. Also, just because the London media wanted to make it a racist issue didn’t make it a racist issue. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Hurry Up Harry in the link below_ > I am for Leave because the EU political project has four built-in and fatal flaws: it is undemocratic, neoliberal, corrupt and a bad foreign policy actor in a dangerous world. > > I am also for Leave because I believe that the Remain case rests on two fallacies: ‘No EU, no prosperity’ and ‘No EU, no peace’. > > And finally, I am willing to Leave because I think there is a better alternative: we can fight for – in a democracy you can do no more, there are no guarantees – a social democratic country modelling democratic internationalism and responsible global citizenship as an independent nation-state cooperating with its neighbours. [http://hurryupharry.org/2016/06/20/why-i-am-voting-leave-by-professor-alan-johnson/](http://hurryupharry.org/2016/06/20/why-i-am-voting-leave-by-professor-alan-johnson/) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698/199 "2016-07-27T09:28:31Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Indeed. Also, just because the London media wanted to make it a racist issue didn’t make it a racist issue. Conversely, just because there were non-racist reasons to vote Leave doesn’t mean that substantial elements of the campaign weren’t based on racism and xenophobia. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698/200 "2016-07-27T13:57:40Z")
Here’s some commentary on the rise of the politics of the extreme and the decline of centrist politics in the West. British BBC journalist and political commentator Andrew Marr [writing in March 2015](http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/03/andrew-marr-british-politics-broken-centre-cannot-hold), shows great prescience: > [@](#): > > Thus, the centre is gently collapsing – not simply mealy-mouthed, easy-osy, compromising, milk-and-water centrism or one-nation compassionism but the notion of there being a centre at all, a relatively stable central party system that is able to deliver coherent parliamentary majorities. All around the hollowing centre are multiple populisms, rubbing their hands – a populism that blames foreigners and Europe, a populism that blames the English-dominated state, the populist politics of Protestant Ulster, the left-wing populism of the Greens. His comments on Scotland foreshadow the Brexit result (Scotland, unlike England or Wales, voted against Brexit): > [@](#): > > Scotland now appears to be so far to the left of England, or rather the English south, that the separate parts of the UK cannot continue together. From an article on the rise of the far-right in Europe in the [British _Telegraph_ (May 2016)](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/19/the-rise-of-the-far-right-in-europe-is-not-a-false-alarm/): > [@](#): > > Over the last 70 years these methods have been sufficient to ensure that the political centre holds, but all across Europe there are now an increasing number of reasons to fear that that is no longer the case. > > The toxic combination of the most prolonged period of economic stagnation and the worst refugee crisis since the end of the Second World War has seen the far-Right surging across the continent, from Athens to Amsterdam and many points in between. > > … > > But complacency about the power of the far-Right in Europe today is misplaced, for two reasons. > > The first is that increasingly there are signs that the centre is not holding. Austria will vote in the second round of its presidential election on Sunday where Norbert Hofer of the far-Right Freedom Party has every chance of winning. _[Due to electoral irregularities, this vote is being held again in October, so the outcome is not yet known]_ > > Mr Hofer, who at one point during the campaign brandished a gun as he fired up anti-immigrant sentiment, won 35 per cent of the vote in the first round, with neither of Austria’s two establishment party candidates making it to the run-off after polling for the first time since World War Two. > > Which brings us quickly to the second point: the surge of far-Right parties across Europe, including elements of Britain’s own Ukip, are already materially impacting Europe’s ability to govern itself, even if they are not actually in power. From Britain’s [\*The Guardian \*(May 2016)]([Far-right surge in Austria signals end of centrist politics-as-usual | The far right | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/22/far-right-surge-in-austria-signals-end-of-centrist-politics-as-usual) ): > [@](#): > > Even before the final tally was declared in Sunday’s neck-and-neck presidential election, it was clear that regardless of who won, Austria’s voters had handed a resounding triumph to the advancing legions of far-right political parties whose disturbing shadow is once again stalking the haunted byways of Europe. > > From Essex to Essen and from Athens to Aarhus, the scale of the vote for the far right will be seen as a death sentence for familiar post-war, centrist politics-as-usual. From [Canada’s _The Globe and Mail_ (June 2016)](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/can-the-political-centre-hold/article30474884/): > [@](#): > > What’s truly chilling is that the most-cited lines from the poem _[W.B. Yeats’_ The Second Coming\* (1919)]\* seem to capture the essence not just of the U.S. presidential race but of the state of politics in most Western countries. “Things fall apart/the centre cannot hold” and “The best lack all conviction/while the worst are full of passionate intensity” speak to the angry populism and political polarization that may not only put Mr. Trump in the White House but send Europe hurtling toward its ethnic nationalist past. > > Almost everywhere in the West – Canada being a glaring exception – right-wing demagogues spewing nativist suspicion of others and left-wing populists disparaging the rich and promising free everything have leapt into the breach created by a centre constantly ceding ground. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corbyn-labour-leadership-the-disaster-everybody-knew-it-would-be/738698.md?page=11)