# Cornell poll: 44% of Americans believe that Muslims should not have civil rights. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 18, 2004, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497 "2004-12-18T06:10:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![infamousmom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d6d6ee/32.png) [@infamousmom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/infamousmom)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/81 "2004-12-18T23:18:50Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > Well, if I’m not mistaken several Islamic “charities” in this very country have been funnelling money straight into the hands of terrorism. Yeah baby… kinda like the collection jars in all those Irish bars that funnel the loot straight to the IRA. You gonna call for cutting off the civil rights of everybody that drinks green beer? :wally ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/82 "2004-12-18T23:25:15Z")
> [@infamousmom](#): > > Yeah baby… kinda like the collection jars in all those Irish bars that funnel the loot straight to the IRA. You gonna call for cutting off the civil rights of everybody that drinks green beer? I suspect he would have no problem with law enforcement keeping tabs on, or even infiltrating, an Irish bar suspected of financing terrorism. Would you? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/83 "2004-12-18T23:58:18Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > PETA has [given money](http://www.amprogress.org/ResearchOpposition/ResearchOpposition.cfm?ID=129&c=18) to both the [ELF](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Liberation_Front) and the [ALF](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Liberation_Front), both of which have a record of arson and other acts of property destruction to further their goals. Additionally, the ALF has made threats against individuals. In addition to providing financial support to terrorist organiztion, [PETA also has a history](http://www.nfss.org/Legis/Peta-AA/pet-5.html) of funding the legal defense of those who use violence to further PETA’s goals, such as Roger Coronado, who blew up a research lab. Those were the things I was thinking of. Still… > [@John Stossel](#): > > What’s up with the animal rights activists? They’d rather save a lab rat than allow potentially lifesaving research into diseases that kill us humans. When my choice are saving a rat or saving John Stossel… ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/84 "2004-12-19T00:03:44Z")
> [@Nightime](#): > > I suspect he would have no problem with law enforcement keeping tabs on, or even infiltrating, an Irish bar suspected of financing terrorism. > > Would you? Yes. But how about “Irish bars” or “Irish people” in general, though? There was a prevailing attitude in the 1970s and 80s in the UK towards Irish people in general, during the IRA and INLA bombing campaigns. There’s a line from an Irish rebel song that goes “Being Irish means you’re guilty / So we’re guilty one and all”. The implication of the sentiment to me is that prejudice to the entire group fosters that group’s empathy with the terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/85 "2004-12-19T00:07:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > When my choice are saving a rat or saving John Stossel… Unless it was a Rat of Unmitigated Evil, I’d choose the rat. 😉 FTR, the only reason I picked that cite for the “funding the defense of terrorists” aspect was because it was the first I found that wasn’t hosted by an organization that wasn’t an obvious shill for industry (e.g., the Consumer Federation of America). It’s pretty well-documented, though… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/86 "2004-12-19T00:54:19Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > PETA has [given money](http://www.amprogress.org/ResearchOpposition/ResearchOpposition.cfm?ID=129&c=18) to both the [ELF](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Liberation_Front) and the [ALF](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Liberation_Front), both of which have a record of arson and other acts of property destruction to further their goals. Additionally, the ALF has made threats against individuals. In addition to providing financial support to terrorist organiztion, [PETA also has a history](http://www.nfss.org/Legis/Peta-AA/pet-5.html) of funding the legal defense of those who use violence to further PETA’s goals, such as Roger Coronado, who blew up a research lab. > > You wanna talk about cheapening the word “terrorism”? [Hera ya go.](http://www.peta.org/feat/turk-terr/) Your cite is nothing but a grandstanding letter from a Republican congressman asking a lot of questions about whether PeTA has donated money tp ALF or ELF. It doesn’t actually provide any proof that PeTA has done so. PeTA is not a terrorist group and they are not affiliated with any terrorist groups nor have they ever sponsored any violence. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/87 "2004-12-19T01:02:37Z")
[Here’s testimony from an FBI section chief regarding ALF and ELF terrorist activities.](http://www.furcommission.com/news/newsF04f.htm) “The FBI estimates that the ALF/ELF have committed more than 600 criminal acts in the United States since 1996, resulting in damages in excess of 43 million dollars.” The fact that PeTA gives money to these groups is well known and has been printed many times, the information was discovered in their own tax documents. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/88 "2004-12-19T01:23:25Z")
I can’t find any acts of violence ennumerated in that cite. It seems to have a very loose definition of terrorism and is suspiciously vague about what the specific acts of “terror” are. What constitutes “ecoterror?” Is it throwing paint on a fur coat or sabotaging a bulldozer. I don’t consider that “terror” and it’s a perfect example of cheapening the word. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/89 "2004-12-19T01:47:43Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I can’t find any acts of violence ennumerated in that cite. It seems to have a very loose definition of terrorism and is suspiciously vague about what the specific acts of “terror” are. > > What constitutes “ecoterror?” Is it throwing paint on a fur coat or sabotaging a bulldozer. I don’t consider that “terror” and it’s a perfect example of cheapening the word. To my mind ecoterror includes anything involving arson for political purposes. Such as the Vail arson of 2000, IIRC; or torching SUV’s on dealer’s lots - both actions that have been claimed by either ALF or ELF. This [cite](http://www.cnsnews.com/Culture/Archive/200203/CUL20020308a.html) offers one admitted link between ALF, ELF and PeTA. Anyone using arson for political purposes is only a stroke of coincidence, or luck, from being a murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/90 "2004-12-19T01:48:36Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Your cite is nothing but a grandstanding letter from a Republican congressman asking a lot of questions about whether PeTA has donated money tp ALF or ELF. No, my cite is a letter from a Congressman (who the fuck cares what party he belongs to?) asking PETA _why_ they gave money to the ALF and ELF–not _if_ they did. The fact that they gave money is, as **Marley23** pointed out, documented in their own tax filings. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > PeTA is not a terrorist group and they are not affiliated with any terrorist groups nor have they ever sponsored any violence. So are you saying that the ALF and the ELF aren’t terrorist groups ([note that the FBI considers both to be domestic terrorists](http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress02/jarboe021202.htm))? Or are you saying that financially supporting terrorist groups doesn’t mean you’re affiliated with them? ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/91 "2004-12-19T01:49:38Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > What constitutes “ecoterror?” Is it throwing paint on a fur coat or sabotaging a bulldozer. I don’t consider that “terror” and it’s a perfect example of cheapening the word. Well you might concider burning down a sub-division to protect some wetland or wild-life area. While the homes were both incomplete and un-occupied in most instances , the goal was to frighten new home buyers into staying away from this particular maryland suburb. Obviously no one group has claimed reponsibility and the ELF has poo poo’ed the perps , of course. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/92 "2004-12-19T01:49:50Z")
Terror means using violence against human beings, not SUVs. Industrial sabotage is still criminal but it isn’t terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/93 "2004-12-19T01:50:56Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > No, my cite is a letter from a Congressman (who the fuck cares what party he belongs to?) asking PETA _why_ they gave money to the ALF and ELF–not _if_ they did. The fact that they gave money is, as **Marley23** pointed out, documented in their own tax filings. > > So are you saying that the ALF and the ELF aren’t terrorist groups ([note that the FBI considers both to be domestic terrorists](http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress02/jarboe021202.htm))? Or are you saying that financially supporting terrorist groups doesn’t mean you’re affiliated with them? The FBI can suck my cock. I don’t consider them to be terrorist groups. Have they ever killed anybody? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/94 "2004-12-19T01:52:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But there was a time, to prove a somewhat similar point, that I did post my name, phone, and address here. It was deleted by the administration. E-mail it to me. I’ll put it on the internet for every Tom, Dick, and Harry to read. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/95 "2004-12-19T01:53:31Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The FBI can suck my cock. I don’t consider them to be terrorist groups. Have they ever killed anybody? Would it be fair to say that you believe that bodily harm to a human is a necessary prerequisite for an act to be terrorism? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/96 "2004-12-19T01:53:32Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Well you might concider burning down a sub-division to protect some wetland or wild-life area. While the homes were both incomplete and un-occupied in most instances , the goal was to frighten new home buyers into staying away from this particular maryland suburb. > > Obviously no one group has claimed reponsibility and the ELF has poo poo’ed the perps , of course. > > Declan Well then you can’t balem PETA, can you? This whole argument is a sidetrack from my thread. If if PeTa were a terrorist organization (which they aren’t except by the most specious chain of leaps) they still are not a RELIGION and they are not analogous to Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/97 "2004-12-19T01:54:39Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Would it be fair to say that you believe that bodily harm to a human is a necessary prerequisite for an act to be terrorism? Either bodily harm or a threat of bodily harm, yes. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/98 "2004-12-19T01:57:13Z")
I am grateful for this discussion. I can’t tell you how little thought I’d given lately to the terrible threat of eco-terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/99 "2004-12-19T01:59:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I am grateful for this discussion. I can’t tell you how little thought I’d given lately to the terrible threat of eco-terrorism. Maybe you’d feel differently if your livelyhood depended on an activity that the ELF or the ALF didn’t like? ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/100 "2004-12-19T02:03:16Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Well then you can’t blame PETA, can you? > > This whole argument is a sidetrack from my thread. If if PeTa were a terrorist organization (which they aren’t except by the most specious chain of leaps) they still are not a RELIGION and they are not analogous to Muslims. Your right , it is a side track , but one that needs to be traveled. To bring it back to your OP , what level of law enforcement would you be happy with, in relation to domestic based terrorist cells, of what ever flavor ? Declan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497.md?page=6)