# Cornell poll: 44% of Americans believe that Muslims should not have civil rights. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 18, 2004, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497 "2004-12-18T06:10:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/121 "2004-12-19T08:08:45Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > I guess not. [This idiot](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/03/20040318-3.html) misuses the term frequently, for example. Heh, yeah. Didn’t take too long for the political shifting of “terrorism” into “anything bad for America” to happen, did it? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/122 "2004-12-19T08:56:42Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > OK. > > Say, for example, i don’t believe that snatching random citizens off the street and imprisoning them is a curtailment of their civil rights. And then i say that i’m in favor of snatching random citizens off the street and imprisoning them. > > Ergo, i’m not saying that i support a curtailment of people’s civil rights. > > Sounds pretty silly, doesn’t it? What does that have to do with what we’re talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/123 "2004-12-19T09:42:15Z")
Seems to me like the people who are opposed to the protection of full civil rights for _all_ of our citizens are the greatest danger to our country – not foreign terrorists. When the ideals that our government is founded on become so thoroughly eroded with exceptions, there is not really much left to secure. It’s like living in No Name City. I get the feeling sometimes that many Republicans don’t much care for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights – not _really_. Not in the clinches. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/124 "2004-12-19T15:58:23Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > What constitutes “ecoterror?” Is it sabotaging a bulldozer. I don’t consider that “terror” and it’s a perfect example of cheapening the word. > [@Diogenes](#): > > Vandalizing a lab is just vandalism…it isn’t terrorism. Vandalizing an abortion clinic ? That isn’t terror ? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/125 "2004-12-19T16:16:35Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > Vandalizing an abortion clinic ? That isn’t terror ? It depends on whether there are people inside (or likely to be inside). Intent is everything. And what do you mean by “vandalism?” Spray painting “BABY KILLERS” on the wall is not terrorism, fire bombing a clinic with people inside is terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/126 "2004-12-19T16:40:25Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > And what do you mean by “vandalism?” Spray painting “BABY KILLERS” on the wall is not terrorism, fire bombing a clinic with people inside is terrorism. So, firefighters aren’t people? The people killed in fires are not always “innocents” caught in the fire. The act of fighting a fire is a physically demanding, and dangerous action. Every act of arson puts firefighters at risk. Additionally, even the best firefighters can only be in one place at one time, it is not unheard of for a set fire to be occupying a firefighting department when a legitimate fire call comes in. You seem bent on ignoring the fact that **any** act of arson has the potential to take life. Anyone using arson for political goals has either chowder where most of us keep brains, or is willing to kill un-related persons to make their point. Terrorism, in otherwords. Anyone giving money to any group that advocates arson as a political tool is supporting a terrorist organization. Ergo, by their own financials, PeTA, as has been stated several times, supports terrorist organizations. What part of this reasoning don’t you accept? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/127 "2004-12-19T16:46:58Z")
If you can prove that the intent of starting a fire was to deliberately injure emergency workers you might have a point but I think you’re twisting yourself into a pretzel to make it. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/128 "2004-12-19T16:49:08Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I get the feeling sometimes that many Republicans don’t much care for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights – not _really_. Not in the clinches. > [@](#): > > About 40 percent of Republican respondents agreed that Muslim Americans should be required to register their whereabouts, compared with 24 percent of Democratic respondents and 17 percent of independents. **Zoe** , you did see that according to this poll 24% of Democrats surveyed were supporting registration of Muslim Americans? And through most every part of the poll there was a similar break down of attitudes by political party? Don’t assume that any political party is innocent of being willing to trade someone else’s civil rights for a percieved improvement in security. My arguments with **DtC** and **Marley23** in this thread aside, I am disgusted with the findings of this poll. And while Repugs are more represented than Dems, you can’t tell me that it’s exactly an insignifigant number, there. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/129 "2004-12-19T16:51:42Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > If you can prove that the intent of starting a fire was to deliberately injure emergency workers you might have a point but I think you’re twisting yourself into a pretzel to make it. No, actually, I’m using standard legal thinking from every criminal court in this country: If one’s criminal actions cause the loss of a life as a direct result of said criminal action, it is murder. And the degree of murder is based, not on the circumstances of the actual death, but the circumstances of original crime. Ergo, if you deliberately plan to torch something, and someone, anyone, is killed because of that fire, it’s murder one. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/130 "2004-12-19T16:53:28Z")
But it’s not terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/131 "2004-12-19T16:55:46Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > What does that have to do with what we’re talking about? Well, you asserted that we need to make a distinction between not believing that a certain action is a curtailment of civil rights, and saying you are in favor of curtailing civil rights. I was making the point that the distinction, in many cases, is meaningless. The fact that someone avoids the accusation of being in favor of curtailing civil rights through some cheap rationalization doesn’t mean that they’re not in favor of curtailing civil rights. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/132 "2004-12-19T17:00:40Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > But it’s not terrorism. Is burning a cross on a black man’s lawn not terrorism? Is painting a swastika on a synagogue door not terrorism ? ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/133 "2004-12-19T17:01:03Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > But it’s not terrorism. Odd, I thought you’d accepted that willingness to harm, let alone murder, or the willingness to murder, in support of political goals was terrorism. Especially the injury of persons unrelated to the political issue at hand. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/134 "2004-12-19T17:19:40Z")
_Intent_ to harm or to threaten. _Intent_ to cause mortal fear. Unintended consequences may be irresponsible, may show disregard, amy even be felony murder, but if they are _unintended_, it is not terrorism. Terrorism is all about intent. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/135 "2004-12-19T19:57:47Z")
This thread is like the semantic ballroom dancing championship or something. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/136 "2004-12-19T20:27:18Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I disagree. Vandalizing a lab is just vandalism. I’m not saying it isn’t a crime but it isn’t terrorism. It isn’t going to make anyone fear for their lives. I think you may be painting yourself into a corner. There are certainly “terroistic” type activities (hate crimes and the like) that may (momentarily) be bits of vandalism (swastikas, burning crosses, certain acts of vandalism on abortion clinics and the like) which do indeed make people fear for their lives. I agree that the poll listed in your OP is shocking. and troubling. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/137 "2004-12-19T20:51:16Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > My heart bleeds for anyone who isn’t a lilly-white christian cracker ass right about now. That includes my dark-skin having, Star of David worshipping kike ass. > > Fuck all of the hateful idiots. > > Sam Sammy Davis? Is that you? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/138 "2004-12-19T21:21:06Z")
> [@Nightime](#): > > The question does not allow for such distinctions, so you can’t draw any conclusions about taking away civil rights from that question. I was all set to disagree with you, but I applied the negative - to answer “no” is to imply that you think that _no_ mosques should be monitored. Which of course I think should be perfectly allowable if there is reasonable (reasonable, mind) suspicion. Bad question. However, given the 27% response to the first question, I’m drawing my own conclusions about the intent of those answering in the affirmative. > [@grienspace](#): > > Is burning a cross on a black man’s lawn not terrorism? No. > [@](#): > > Is painting a swastika on a synagogue door not terrorism ? No. Both actions are disgusting and unconscionable, but they are NOT terrorism. For fuck’s sake, what has happened to the use of this word since 9/11? Do not allow it to be hijacked to justify denial of rights to anyone other than genuine fucking terrorists (q.v. Cat Stevens). ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/139 "2004-12-19T22:13:21Z")
> [@Rebekkah](#): > > I am alarmed by the anti-Muslim/Arabic (seemingly interchangable terms in the media these days) rhetoric I am hearing from mainstream sources. Even TV shows reflect this. Enemies are usually turban wearing and dark skinned. Just to point out that the stereotype is even stupider than you might think, none of the people I know who wear turbans are even Muslims–they’re Sikhs. The Muslims I see going to prayer (and I live right across the street from a mosque), if they cover their heads at all, wear kufis (a little round cap). ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/140 "2004-12-20T09:06:50Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Well, you asserted that we need to make a distinction between not believing that a certain action is a curtailment of civil rights, and saying you are in favor of curtailing civil rights. > > I was making the point that the distinction, in many cases, is meaningless. The “cases” that are under consideration here are the ones _in the survey_, The example you gave is dissimilar from the questions in the survey. There was no question in the survey about randomly rounding up Muslims and throwing them in jail. > [@](#): > > The fact that someone avoids the accusation of being in favor of curtailing civil rights through some cheap rationalization doesn’t mean that they’re not in favor of curtailing civil rights. I don’t think you’re following the logic here. When you do a survey, you can’t substitute your _own_ opinion about the “meaning” of the answers for the actual opinion of the person who answered the question. If you do, then the results will be biased. It doesn’t matter that you came up with one extreme example where _you_ think it’s really cut & dried - especially when you just made the example up out of thin air and it has nothing to do with the actual questions we are discussing. And I already explained this _really_ well, so quit being fucking obtuse, o.k.? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497.md?page=8)