# Cornell poll: 44% of Americans believe that Muslims should not have civil rights. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 18, 2004, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497 "2004-12-18T06:10:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/141 "2004-12-20T09:40:26Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > If you can prove that the intent of starting a fire was to deliberately injure emergency workers you might have a point but I think you’re twisting yourself into a pretzel to make it. I must disagree here. Starting a fire does put people in harms way. It is deliberately risking lives. Is the point of terrorism to kill, or is the point of terrorism to cause people to live in fear of being killed? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/142 "2004-12-20T11:54:45Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > I must disagree here. Starting a fire does put people in harms way. It is deliberately risking lives. Muggers risk (in fact, deliberately threaten) peoples lives. Drink drivers risk peoples lives. The word terrorism loses all meaning if it is to be applied willy-nilly to all life-threatening behaviour. There are existing terms, and existing criminal sanctions, for such behaviours. > [@spooje](#): > > Is the point of terrorism to kill, or is the point of terrorism to cause people to live in fear of being killed? The point of _murder_ is to kill. Terrorism hopes to achieve something else as well, i.e., some political outcome. It’s the political angle that may change our response to the act, and it’s why it’s useful to distinguish terrorism from vandalism, sabotage, or just plain, everyday, murder. **paperbackwriter** made this point in the [thread that was spawned by this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5628342#post5628342): > [@paperbackwriter](#): > > For instance, it is necessary to distinguish between groups trying to overthrow America from a person pissed at his landlord, correct? Even if both of them blow up an apartment building, the response by law-enforcement to these groups is going to be different. I would note that whilst the response by law enforcement _should_ be different, the approach under Bush won’t necessarily be that way. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/143 "2004-12-20T12:37:51Z")
In regards to tree spiking, Earth First originally informed the loggers that trees were spiked… their idea was to protect the trees, not to hurt the loggers, and I don’t think there are many reported cases where that actually occurred. Horror stories about environmental terrorism is very small, random acts of violence stoked up by a whole lotta right wing spin and urban legend. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/144 "2004-12-20T12:51:14Z")
In regards to the OP, I wouldn’t take it too seriously as anti-Muslim sentiment. Many Americans, especially those God-fearing ones in the red staes, have little respect for civil rights of anyone except themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/145 "2004-12-20T13:03:25Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > Muggers risk (in fact, deliberately threaten) peoples lives. Drink drivers risk peoples lives. The word terrorism loses all meaning if it is to be applied willy-nilly to all life-threatening behaviour. There are existing terms, and existing criminal sanctions, for such behaviours. The point of _murder_ is to kill. Terrorism hopes to achieve something else as well, i.e., some political outcome. It’s the political angle that may change our response to the act, and it’s why it’s useful to distinguish terrorism from vandalism, sabotage, or just plain, everyday, murder. Would the setting of bombs in Planned Parenthood clinics, set to go off when no one was supposed to be there, be terrorism or just vandalism? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/146 "2004-12-20T13:11:35Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > Muggers risk (in fact, deliberately threaten) peoples lives. Drink drivers risk peoples lives. The word terrorism loses all meaning if it is to be applied willy-nilly to all life-threatening behaviour. There are existing terms, and existing criminal sanctions, for such behaviours. It’s not being applied to “all life-threatening behavior.” It has the necessary motivation (a political consequence) and the threat of violence against the innocent. I understand the distinction that’s being made here, but this is not stretching the boundary so far as to include all acts of violence or all threats. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/147 "2004-12-20T13:23:45Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Would the setting of bombs in Planned Parenthood clinics, set to go off when no one was supposed to be there, be terrorism or just vandalism? False dichotomy. Spray painting slogans on the wall, or breaking a window, would be vandalism. What you describe would be, under the Texan criminal code for example, arson. > [@](#): > > 28.02. ARSON. > > (a) A person commits an offense if the > person starts a fire, regardless of whether the fire continues > after ignition, or causes an explosion with intent to destroy or > damage: > > (1) any vegetation, fence, or structure on open-space land; or > (2) any building, habitation, or vehicle: > (A) knowing that it is within the limits of an incorporated city or town; > (B) knowing that it is insured against damage or destruction; > © knowing that it is subject to a mortgage or other security interest; > (D) knowing that it is located on property belonging to another; > (E) knowing that it has located within it property belonging to another; or > (F) when the person is reckless about whether the burning or explosion will endanger the life of some individual or the safety of the property of another. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/148 "2004-12-20T13:28:22Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > False dichotomy. > > Spray painting slogans on the wall, or breaking a window, would be vandalism. What you describe would be, under the Texan criminal code for example, arson. Not a false dichotomy. My response that you had quoted was in references to **Dio** ’s insistance that arson wasn’t terrorism if the intent wasn’t to harm anyone. It was just be arson, regardless of any political aim that motivated it. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/149 "2004-12-20T13:29:21Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s not being applied to “all life-threatening behavior.” It has the necessary motivation (a political consequence) and the threat of violence against the innocent. I understand the distinction that’s being made here, but this is not stretching the boundary so far as to include all acts of violence or all threats. The distinction isn’t being properly made in some of the hypotheticals in this thread, that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/150 "2004-12-20T14:37:28Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > A proper definition is “Terrorism means using violence or threats of violence _against noncombatants_ to achieve political ends.” If by “proper” you mean, “In the dictionary,” then no, there’s no requirement that the targets be noncombatants, nor is there any requirement that the terrorists intend body harm, or even that they hurt anyone physically (only that they threaten to). "Any one who attempts to further his views by a system of coercive intimidation. In early use also applied spec. to members of one of the extreme revolutionary societies in Russia. The term now usually refers to a member of a clandestine or expatriate organization aiming to coerce an established government by acts of violence against it or its subjects. " So terrorism is largely a matter of power. If the US kills innocent people to crush agovernment and bend people to the will, it is war. If someone else does it, it is terrorism. The phrase seems to originate with the French Revolutionaries, and has since been generally applied to insurgents. However, the ruling party can practice terrorism, as has been proven in Iraq and South America. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/151 "2004-12-20T14:45:08Z")
The quote above comes from the Oxford English Dictionary, sorry I forgot to mention that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/152 "2004-12-20T14:57:38Z")
We must agree to coomunicate in American English. Next time cite with Websters. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/153 "2004-12-20T15:11:15Z")
There is no single autoritative Webster. You do know that, right? In any case, the def. at [Webster.com](http://Webster.com) is not substantially different, although they suggest that terrorism can only be done against the gov’t, where the OED suggests that governments using coercion to keep people in line are practicing terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/154 "2004-12-20T15:19:46Z")
That’s pretty damn significant when people accuse Bush of being a terrorist. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/155 "2004-12-20T15:25:17Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > …where the OED suggests that governments using coercion to keep people in line are practicing terrorism. As does the [1913 Websters](http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=terrorism) > [@](#): > > Ter"ror\*ism (?), n. [Cf. F. terrorisme.] The act of terrorizing, or state of being terrorized; a mode of government by terror or intimidation. Jefferson. \<-- 2. The practise of coercing governments to accede to political demands by committing violence on civilian targets; any similar use of violence to achieve goals. --\> [Jefferson on governmental terrorism:](http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/jeff_letters.htm) > [@](#): > > I repeat again, that we ought not to schismatize on either men or measures. Principles alone can justify that. If we find our government in all its branches rushing headlong, like our predecessors, into the arms of monarchy, if we find them violating our dearest rights, the trial by jury, the freedom of the press, the freedom of opinion, civil or religious, **or opening on our peace of mind or personal safety the sluices of terrorism** , if we see them raising standing armies, when the absence of all other danger points to these as the sole objects on which they are to be employed, then indeed let us withdraw and call the nation to its tents. But while our functionaries are wise, and honest, and vigilant, let us move compactly under their guidance, and we have nothing to fear. Things may here and there go a little wrong. It is not in their power to prevent it. But all will be right in the end, though not perhaps by the shortest means. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/156 "2004-12-20T15:29:20Z")
**Squink** , I will _suffer_ you your point. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/157 "2004-12-20T15:36:15Z")
Racism, ethinc bias and religious bias in America! All revealed in poll! SHOCKING!!! Actually, replace “America” in the above with “the world” and it is even less shocking. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/158 "2004-12-20T15:49:35Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > In regards to the OP, I wouldn’t take it too seriously as anti-Muslim sentiment. Many Americans, especially those God-fearing ones in the red staes, have little respect for civil rights of anyone except themselves. Would you get the **HELL** off your fucking high horse? In case you didn’t notice, the study/poll found that the desire to restrict/curtail civil rights based on religious affiliation crossed **all** party lines. Yes, Repugs were more represented than Democrats, but with one in four Democrats (Okay, 24%) saying that making muslim Americans register their whereabouts is a good idea leaves me thinking this isn’t exactly an attitude you can put only on the Repugs. Read the fucking study you twit! ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/159 "2004-12-20T15:58:29Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > Would you get the **HELL** off your fucking high horse? In case you didn’t notice, the study/poll found that the desire to restrict/curtail civil rights based on religious affiliation crossed **all** party lines. Yes, Repugs were more represented than Democrats, but with one in four Democrats (Okay, 24%) saying that making muslim Americans register their whereabouts is a good idea leaves me thinking this isn’t exactly an attitude you can put only on the Repugs. > > Read the fucking study you twit! Hence the word “especially” over “exclusively.” I stand by my post. The red states civil liberties less than blue states, and their notion of civil liberties is restricted to the right to infuse their government ans schools with Christian symbolism and the right to bear arms. The rest can fuck all. The height of my metaphorical horse has nothing do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497/160 "2004-12-20T16:15:37Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > Racism, ethinc bias and religious bias in America! All revealed in poll! > > SHOCKING!!! > > Actually, replace “America” in the above with “the world” and it is even less shocking. Does the absence of shock value make it any less worth noticing? Will the assault on our liberties go away if we simply refuse to acknowledge it? I don’t think so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cornell-poll-44-of-americans-believe-that-muslims-should-not-have-civil-rights/280497.md?page=9)