# Corner Crossing - Large portions of US public land inaccessible to public
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [November 28, 2022, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691 "2022-11-28T16:34:55Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2022, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691/1 "2022-11-28T16:34:55Z")
I’ve been reading about the corner crossing controversy for a couple years now and don’t think it’s been brought up here. I live in an area of the US that has this patchwork of public and private land. Before I knew of the controversy, I corner crossed thinking there must be nothing wrong with it. Little did I know that rich people that own the private land surrounding the public land begin to view that public land as their own private, and free, paradise. If it truly becomes illegal to corner cross, that huge amount of private land effectively becomes private unless you can afford the expensive helicopter ride in. We are talking around 15 million acres of public land effectively blocked off to the public. I think it is bullshit.
There is a brand new NY Times article out and I hope I have copied the correct gifted link which should allow any to view:
> **[It’s Public Land. But the Public Can’t Reach It.](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/26/business/hunting-wyoming-elk-mountain-access.html?unlocked_article_code=qwrkBe-1JzorwRX4FvRiYXMvVs0gcHiR_AG46WYvdDHJxQ152aL6mNiGFSfFYOWO5D3J7iawSMTKheTIK49aMwKWViomDZpEdzSsvAkCAoKW84TOhrfV1oTvT8AtVHd3_U5Vx9M5zdHo1cEh6eUXMq7sjv29QkPlwnH60aMtzZOCSQumNL_4-WO6V_ff8Qu2FIAMWiftdAtkE_UGSbQLj17rOSZZ8JOUy69B_qUITDTSlWA5AOPiTAeeXEg-sRbyH_Zey5veDpjW4v-G30WmUuUQYtuBr8IJ2t8aUNACx7QJvE0_LJp7ofdNcsO7bRQatRz6iMNwhqEyeM072EfHx9t2wp60pDwk8KjemeW6&smid=share-url)**
>
> A navigation app that illuminates public land within privately held property has supercharged the question of who gets to go where.
---
### Author:  [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2022, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691/2 "2022-11-28T16:41:00Z")
Didn’t we have some huge thread about this a while (like 10 years) back? I remember something about a big controversy because the public needed to cross over some private property to get to a beach.
ETA, I believe this is what I was thinking of.
> [@Lawyers? Man buys land that includes public road, bars access to the public.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-man-buys-land-that-includes-public-road-bars-access-to-the-public/672572):
>
> [Vinod Khosla, California, Half Moon Bay, 1848 Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo](http://valleywag.gawker.com/venture-capitalist-wins-fight-to-exempt-his-land-from-c-1454066602/@maxread) Is that how this is supposed to work? The treaty gives land parcels granted by the Mexican government immunity to the law so this guy can take a California State road and claim it as his own? I hope I’m explaining this wrong, so what’s the deal here?
---
### Author:  [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2022, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691/3 "2022-11-28T16:52:10Z")
That is somewhat similar, but different, and a lot smaller scale than the corner crossing controversy.
The US gave away and sold entire sections (one mile by one mile chunk of land equaling 640 acres) and retained others in a checkerboard fashion. If the four land owners (or one really rich guy) surrounding one of these public sections don’t want to grant access, they have essentially created a free 640 acre parcel for themselves. There are a LOT of these locked public sections in the west. Here are a couple more articles about it:
> **[Why Not Legalize All Corner Crossing in the West?](https://www.outdoorlife.com/conservation/why-not-legalize-all-corner-crossing-in-the-west/)**
>
> Even the staunchest public access advocates aren't advocating for blanket legalization of corner crossing in the West. But why not?
> **[Report: 8.3M acres of public land in limbo due to questions over legality of...](https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2022/jun/19/report-83m-acres-of-public-land-in-limbo-due-to-qu/)**
>
> Access to 8.3 million acres of public land in 11 western states is in limbo due to questions over the legality of crossing from one corner of public land to another, known as corner crossing.
---
### Author:  [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)
#### Post date: [November 28, 2022, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691/4 "2022-11-28T17:01:00Z")
Corner crossing seems like a very reasonable case for eminent domain. Give the landowners an opportunity to designate and mark easements to public land. If they won’t, the government can do it for them.
It would require appropriating, what, a few square feet per corner? Just enough to mark a trail. An insignificant loss of real property, and I don’t care if they’re sad about losing exclusive access to public land.
---
### Author:  [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2022, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691/5 "2022-11-29T15:44:26Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#):
>
> Corner crossing seems like a very reasonable case for eminent domain.
100% this. On our property, there are three property corners that meet at the same spot. Ours and two neighbors. That corner is on the boundary to National Forest. We do, of course just walk across that. I suppose we are sometimes putting a foot on someone else’s property, but no one give a damn cause we are all reasonable people.
---
### Author:  [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2022, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691/6 "2022-11-29T18:48:06Z")
> [@wguy123](#):
>
> I think it is bullshit.
Well, I think you’re RIGHT!
The issue also opens up a whole can of worms with enforcement. Say Rich Asshole (RA) calls the local cops on some hunters, who are now on public land. Cops say, 'Yeah, we’ll check this out… maybe tomorrow". Of course, they never do. So, RA now either shuts up, causes a stink up the chain of command with his money, hires a private security team… any number of things. Shit gets out of control from here real fast.
Too bad real life doesn’t have the rule “Don’t Be A Dick”.
---
### Author:  [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2022, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691/7 "2022-11-29T18:55:09Z")
Yeah–we’re kind of in the epicenter of this in Montana, but it’s a serious issue in the whole West and it’s very frustrating that the US Gov. will happily write me a $250 ticket for being on the wrong trail with my MTB or dirtbike, but pretty much steadfastly refuses to enforce easements that have been signed, much less prescriptive easements. I really think if these fuckers want to have this public land for their own they at an absolute minimum should have to pay taxes on it. There’s a notorious pair of Texan brothers in Idaho that is putting armed guards on public easements and denying access. The Crazy Mountains in my back yard are another prime example–large chunks of access have been cut off by rich landowners and the USFS just shuffles their feet.
---
### Author:  [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2022, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691/8 "2022-11-29T19:08:33Z")
I think the majority of folks that want to access these land-locked sections of lands tend to be hunters and fisherman, and while I have hunted, my interest now is in hiking and mountain biking. I think that there are rich hunters that also like these great sections of land being closed off unless you can afford the helicopter ride in and out.
> [@Tride](#):
>
> There’s a notorious pair of Texan brothers in Idaho that is putting armed guards on public easements and denying access
Do you have any articles or links about this?
I just read about the Crazies and yes, they are a prime example of this problem (the wiki page even mentions the private land ownership causing problems). I’ve never been to those mountains but they look great. Spend a lot of time in the Cabinets.
> **[Crazy Mountains](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Mountains)**
>
> The Crazy Mountains, often called the Crazies, is a mountain range in the Central Montana Alkalic Province in the U.S. state of Montana. They are a part of the northern Rocky Mountains.
> Spanning a distance of 40 miles (64 km), the Crazy Mountains are located between the Musselshell and Yellowstone rivers. The highest peak is Crazy Peak at 11,214 feet (3,418 m). Rising over 7,000 feet (2,130 m) above the Great plains to the east, the Crazies dominate their surroundings and are plainly visible jus...
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#):
>
> It would require appropriating, what, a few square feet per corner? Just enough to mark a trail. An insignificant loss of real property, and I don’t care if they’re sad about losing exclusive access to public land.
Yes! It is really a few square feet of property to put in a gate.
> [@enipla](#):
>
> We do, of course just walk across that. I suppose we are sometimes putting a foot on someone else’s property, but no one give a damn cause we are all reasonable people.
Is there other public access into this portion of the NF or is it surrounded by private property?
---
### Author:  [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2022, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691/9 "2022-11-29T19:11:04Z")
> **[Dan and Farris Wilks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_and_Farris_Wilks)**
>
> Dan Howard Wilks and Farris Cullen Wilks, also known as the Wilks Brothers, are American petroleum industry businessmen. Sons of a bricklayer, the brothers established Wilks Masonry in 1995. They went on to found an early hydraulic fracking company, Frac Tech, in 2002, and eventually became billionaires. In 2011 they sold their 70% interest in Frac Tech for $3.5 billion. They reside in Cisco, Texas.
> They are major funders of conservative causes, including The Daily Wire, PragerU, and the 2016 pr...
---
### Author:  [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2022, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691/10 "2022-11-29T19:48:26Z")
> [@wguy123](#):
>
> Is there other public access into this portion of the NF or is it surrounded by private property?
There is other access. We are talking hundreds of thousands of acres of NF land. All I do is step from my property onto it.
---
### Author:  [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2022, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691/11 "2022-11-29T19:56:10Z")
In theory, either of the other two land owners could stop you from stepping over. Nutty.
@Tride Those brothers are definitely a couple of assholes. For many reasons, assholes.
---
### Author:  [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2022, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691/12 "2022-11-29T19:56:28Z")
One thing the article didn’t mention is, how are the landowners claiming millions of dollars in damage? I would want some receipts for that.
---
### Author:  [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2022, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691/13 "2022-11-29T20:09:30Z")
I’m having trouble figuring something out - where does the ladder go
[https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/11/22/business/00elk-mountain-signs-night/00elk-mountain-signs-night-superJumbo.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp](https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/11/22/business/00elk-mountain-signs-night/00elk-mountain-signs-night-superJumbo.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp)
in this photo?
---
### Author:  [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2022, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691/14 "2022-11-29T20:12:28Z")
> [@wguy123](#):
>
> In theory, either of the other two land owners could stop you from stepping over.
And they would be laughed at all the way out of court. The points that our properties meet is three triangles meeting at a point on the NF boundary. I step right from my property into NF. I suppose casting a shadow for 3 seconds on their property is encroachment.
---
### Author:  [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2022, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691/15 "2022-11-29T20:18:02Z")
Directly over those two fence posts. In this image, the cross-hatched areas are private and the brownish are public. The hunters went from one public section to another. They built the fence to ensure they never stepped on the private land.
[ ](https://i.imgur.com/QTbMDMC.png)
> [@control-z](#):
>
> One thing the article didn’t mention is, how are the landowners claiming millions of dollars in damage? I would want some receipts for that.
According to the WSJ article linked in the NYT’s article:
“Obviously, if the ranch is subject to forcible trespass, its value goes down significantly,”
So, stepping over that property is “forcible trespass” and lowering it’s value. 🙄
In the WSJ article, they even went after small planes that landed onto a public section. They really want that public section to be for their sole use.
> [@enipla](#):
>
> And they would be laughed at all the way out of court. The points that our properties meet is three triangles meeting at a point on the NF boundary. I step right from my property into NF. I suppose casting a shadow for 3 seconds on their property is encroachment.
That is the argument. We aren’t talking about having to step on private property…we are talking about having to to over private property. I imagine that for you to step from your property to the NF land, part of your body has to go over your neighbors properties.
For those that live in a city and have a sidewalk. Can you imagine calling the cops when someone’s arm went over your property as they walked down the sidewalk?
---
### Author:  [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2022, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691/16 "2022-11-29T20:36:51Z")
From the article,
> [@](#):
>
> They proceeded to camp on the mountain for nearly a week, during which Mr. Eshelman’s ranch hands pursued them in pickup trucks, Mr. Cape said.
How is this legal? Couldn’t the ranch hands be cited for harassment / assault?
> [@](#):
>
> Could a hunter — or anyone — be jailed simply for waving an arm across a neighbor’s fence?
>
> Prosecutors argued yes. “Landowners don’t just own the land,” claimed Ashley Mayfield Davis, the Carbon County attorney. “You also own your airspace.”
>
> A jury disagreed, acquitting the men after two hours of deliberation. By then, however, Mr. Eshelman had filed a civil trespassing suit, demanding that the hunters pay $3 million to $7 million for property damage.
I’m hoping that the civil lawsuit backfires. I understand not wanting trespassers - you’re now (possibly) liable for their actions on your land. This parcel of land, however, is not theirs. I hope that not only do the hunters win, the appeals go up the courts to where someone (state supreme? SCOTUS?) says “you have to give reasonable access to public lands.”
---
### Author:  [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2022, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691/17 "2022-11-29T21:05:03Z")
> [@wguy123](#):
>
> For those that live in a city and have a sidewalk. Can you imagine calling the cops when someone’s arm went over your property as they walked down the sidewalk?
Forget that - there are some houses in my neighborhood on properties that do not abut a public street. The only way to get to these houses is down what appears to be a driveway between two other houses on the public street. There is almost certainly an easement in the deed of one of the houses next to the “driveway”. Imagine if the owner of that property didn’t allow the owners of the landlocked properties to access them, and then, when they were forced to, claimed their property was worth less because they had to allow these people to cross. They’d be laughed out of court as the property was never really worth the higher amount as they never really had the right to keep those people from crossing their property.
Seems to me the same is true of the corner-crossing - if there’s a court decision that corner crossing is legal, that decision won’t make it legal (thereby lowering the value of the land) , it will be a decision that it has _always_ been legal and the ranch owners never had the right to keep the public from corner-crossing - which means the value hasn’t actually changed.
---
### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2022, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691/18 "2022-11-29T21:24:17Z")
Clearly this whole thing has nothing to do with right & wrong. It’s simply a power play by the rich landowners. Who may well have the lower-level courts sown up.
There is a bit of history in this country that when you get right down to it, there is one right that is “more equal” than all the others: the property rights of the ruling class. Pretty much all other rights bend the knee to that one.
For this reason I’d not be too surprised to see “corner crossing”, reasonable easements, and all the rest declared by SCOTUS to be simply wrong and in fact downright unconscionable. We shall see.
---
### Author:  [@3AxisCtrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3AxisCtrl)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2022, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691/19 "2022-11-29T21:49:34Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#):
>
> Corner crossing seems like a very reasonable case for eminent domain.
But bringing a case for eminent domain is effectively admitting that legal access is not possible without it. Which allows the landowner to argue "You’re saying that right now I have exclusive access, which you propose to take from me. The compensation you offer me must thus take account of the value of that exclusive access.
---
### Author:  [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2022, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691/20 "2022-11-29T21:57:00Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> For this reason I’d not be too surprised to see “corner crossing”, reasonable easements, and all the rest declared by SCOTUS to be simply wrong and in fact downright unconscionable. We shall see.
I certainly hope this isn’t the case. But they allude to the potential negative outcomes through the court and legislative systems in the NYT article:
> [@](#):
>
> But if the civil case goes to trial and reaches a verdict, he thinks the outcome could easily end in favor of landowners. Moreover, if the hunters win, “it would not surprise me at all that the Legislature would come back and pass a law saying corner crossing is illegal,” he said. “It’s sort of if you win, you lose, and if you lose, you lose.”
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corner-crossing-large-portions-of-us-public-land-inaccessible-to-public/975691.md?page=2)