# Coronavirus (COVID-19) conspiracy theory **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2020, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-conspiracy-theory/848434 "2020-02-24T15:00:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-conspiracy-theory/848434/1 "2020-02-24T15:00:38Z")
I’ve seen denunciations of coronavirus conspiracy theories (e.g. [here](https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/scientists-strongly-condemn-rumors-and-conspiracy-theories-about-origin-coronavirus)) and also articles in the media putting forth a theory which seems very similar (e.g. [here](https://nypost.com/2020/02/22/dont-buy-chinas-story-the-coronavirus-may-have-leaked-from-a-lab/)). I’m wondering if they’re the same theory, and if so, on what basis it’s considered a CT. The basic gist of things is the notion that the origin of the virus is a Chinese lab located very close to the purported original source of the virus. Is that a conspiracy theory? If so, why is that CT territory? Is enough known about the origins to definitively rule out the lab? Or is the CT only related to the notion that the virus itself was created as a bio-weapon, and not simply the notion that it may have accidently leaked from a research facility? (Another article of possible interest [here](https://qz.com/1805422/wuhan-virology-lab-unable-to-quell-china-coronavirus-conspiracies/).) ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-conspiracy-theory/848434/2 "2020-02-24T15:20:37Z")
The notion that the virus somehow accidentally leaked from the Wuhan Institute of Virology is plausible, though AFAICT not currently supported by evidence much better than the fact that this outfit is located close to the epicenter. But this can’t properly be called a “conspiracy theory” - that would imply a deliberate plan to spread the virus. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-conspiracy-theory/848434/3 "2020-02-24T15:33:09Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > But this can’t properly be called a “conspiracy theory” - that would imply a deliberate plan to spread the virus. The CT would be the cover up of the leak. There’s always a cover up in CT Land. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-conspiracy-theory/848434/4 "2020-02-24T15:40:23Z")
Call it CT, call it pragmatism, but I truly believe the Chinese government, [not the virus](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51403795), killed whistleblowing doctor Li Wenliang. The government tried to silence him because reporting the virus made China look bad. Which it is, but China always tries to shape reality to its will. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-conspiracy-theory/848434/5 "2020-02-24T15:46:21Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Call it CT, call it pragmatism, but I truly believe the Chinese government, [not the virus](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51403795), killed whistleblowing doctor Li Wenliang. The government tried to silence him because reporting the virus made China look bad. Which it is, but China always tries to shape reality to its will. Except that his death made the Chinese government look even worse. IMO of course. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-conspiracy-theory/848434/6 "2020-02-24T15:46:58Z")
China? The Corona virus was create by a certain beer company to start a viral, hehe, marketing campaign. No, really, I saw this on YouTube, home of all thing true. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-conspiracy-theory/848434/7 "2020-02-24T16:26:03Z")
It’s a CT because not only is there no evidence that it came from a lab, there is ample evidence that it explicitly did not. Using the NY Post (or Daily Mail, or Washington Times) as a cite to give it some aura of respectability is laughable if you know anything about that source. To my knowledge, the only research suggesting otherwise was an unpublished paper comparing some sequences to those found in HIV, and it was immediate debunked by other researchers and withdrawn by the authors. On the contrary, there is plenty of actual research showing its origins are natural. [Proximal origins](http://virological.org/t/the-proximal-origin-of-sars-cov-2/398): “genomic evidence does not support the idea that SARS-CoV-2 is a laboratory construct.” [Sequencing of the virus](https://www.genengnews.com/insights/what-we-know-today-about-coronavirus-sars-cov-2-and-where-do-we-go-from-here/) [No signs of bioengineering](https://www.factcheck.org/2020/02/baseless-conspiracy-theories-claim-new-coronavirus-was-bioengineered/) > [@](#): > > An engineered virus, he explained, would likely have a “distorted” amino acid to nucleotide ratio, and also have changes focused in on a “subset of genes.” In other words, when engineering occurs, it’s usually to bring about a meaningful change to the virus — but there’s no evidence of that in the 2019-nCoV genome. > > Typically, scientists change nucleotides in a targeted way to create changes in the amino acids they code for. Since amino acids are the building blocks of proteins, that’s the way to change the proteins the virus produces. > > But as Bedford said, out of all the nucleotide changes, relatively few — around 14% — alter the corresponding amino acid, or about what you would expect in a naturally evolving virus. This ratio also matches that of the bat virus that’s found to be the most similar to 2019-nCoV. > > Further, when comparing the amino acid changes that do exist, the number of changes in the respective genes in both 2019-nCoV and the bat virus are highly similar. Again, if the virus had been engineered, one might expect many of the changes to cluster in one or two genes, but that’s not the case here. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-conspiracy-theory/848434/8 "2020-02-24T16:34:03Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > It’s a CT because not only is there no evidence that it came from a lab, there is ample evidence that it explicitly did not. Using the NY Post (or Daily Mail, or Washington Times) as a cite to give it some aura of respectability is laughable if you know anything about that source. > > To my knowledge, the only research suggesting otherwise was an unpublished paper comparing some sequences to those found in HIV, and it was immediate debunked by other researchers and withdrawn by the authors. On the contrary, there is plenty of actual research showing its origins are natural. > > [Proximal origins](http://virological.org/t/the-proximal-origin-of-sars-cov-2/398): “genomic evidence does not support the idea that SARS-CoV-2 is a laboratory construct.” > [Sequencing of the virus](https://www.genengnews.com/insights/what-we-know-today-about-coronavirus-sars-cov-2-and-where-do-we-go-from-here/) > [No signs of bioengineering](https://www.factcheck.org/2020/02/baseless-conspiracy-theories-claim-new-coronavirus-was-bioengineered/) It does not appear that you paid much attention to the OP. All your cites address the question of whether the virus was bioengineered, but not whether it originated from the lab. The OP specifically asked about the distinction between these two aspects. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-conspiracy-theory/848434/9 "2020-02-24T16:57:57Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It does not appear that you paid much attention to the OP. > > All your cites address the question of whether the virus was bioengineered, but not whether it originated from the lab. The OP specifically asked about the distinction between these two aspects. Ah, so your theory is that the researchers grabbed samples of a bat virus from nearby caves, have been holding on to it but not doing engineering with it, and then that virus escaped the lab. And this chain of events is more likely than the source of that virus being those caves where the virus sits, already exposed to the environment. No, that doesn’t sound like a conspiracy theory at all. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-conspiracy-theory/848434/10 "2020-02-24T17:03:36Z")
Well firstly, it’s not my theory. But FWIW, it’s my understanding that scientists work with viruses for reasons other than creating them via bio-engineering. Do you really disagree with this? If you don’t, then I can’t imagine what basis you might have for your mockery. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-conspiracy-theory/848434/11 "2020-02-24T17:13:20Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Well firstly, it’s not my theory. Just asking questions, I get it. > [@](#): > > But FWIW, it’s my understanding that scientists work with viruses for reasons other than creating them via bio-engineering. Do you really disagree with this? If you don’t, then I can’t imagine what basis you might have for your mockery. Because that theory is pointless. The sequence of the COVID-19 virus is similar to those found in bat caves near Wuhan. If it came from the environment and underwent no engineering, then it’s not really groundbreaking news that it was found out in the environment. We’re not talking about something like smallpox that hasn’t been seen in the wild for years. The only reason for people to raise this question, again with **no evidence** , is to suggest, implicitly or explicitly, that it was human-caused. And that certainly deserves mockery. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-conspiracy-theory/848434/12 "2020-02-24T17:17:14Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Because that theory is pointless. The sequence of the COVID-19 virus is similar to those found in bat caves near Wuhan. If it came from the environment and underwent no engineering, then it’s not really groundbreaking news that it was found out in the environment. If the way it was transferred from animals to people was due to lax controls at a scientific facility working on it, then that’s significant, even if the virus wasn’t deliberately created by the facility itself. This is obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-conspiracy-theory/848434/13 "2020-02-24T17:21:08Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > If the way it was transferred from animals to people was due to lax controls at a scientific facility working on it, then that’s significant, even if the virus wasn’t deliberately created by the facility itself. If true, yes, it’s significant. The part that makes it a conspiracy theory is there’s a simpler reason that fits observed facts. Until and unless there’s you know…evidence that makes it the more likely scenario, the working theory that the disease transmission occurred from the natural environment is reasonable. Pursuing theories for which there is a paucity of evidence and for which a much simpler and eminently more reasonable explanation already exist is a waste of effort and time. Yet it’s a hallmark of conspiracy theorists to insist on that course of action. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-conspiracy-theory/848434/14 "2020-02-24T17:37:58Z")
I don’t think it’s disputed that viruses from the bat caves were stored at the Wuhan facility (the Level 4 virology lab, not the wet market). The Rutgers professor who keep coming up in the news asserts this as [fact](https://asiatimes.com/2020/02/coronavirus-lab-leakage-rumors-spreading/). Do you disagree, **TroutMan**? The linked article also noted a recent statement from the Chinese Ministry of Science and Technology: > [@](#): > > On Saturday, the ministry issued a directive mandating more stringent handling of viruses and bioagents by all labs and research institutes. The document alluded to the slack oversight and management rampant at some facilities, and stressed that protection and decontamination must be beefed up now that more labs across the nation are intensifying their efforts to develop medicines to treat it and a vaccine to prevent it. It’s certainly nothing conclusive, but I haven’t seen conclusive evidence for any other theory, either. Nor do I see why the possibility of a lab leak is inherently less “simple” or “reasonable” than other theories that are also being asserted without evidence. I guess I don’t see a basis for shutting down scrutiny of the Chinese government’s operation of the virology lab yet. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-conspiracy-theory/848434/15 "2020-02-24T19:07:34Z")
From Tom Tildrum’s link: > [@](#): > > Posts circulating on WeChat and Weibo claim that a researcher at the institute was the first to be infected by the novel coronavirus, now called Covid-19 by the World Health Organization. > > The female virologist and a graduate from the institute, referred to as “patient zero,” had never visited the city’s shambolic wet market – also known as the “zoo” – where a range of wild animals were sold. The market has been identified by the authorities as the most probable source of the deadly pathogen. I’d say this should be looked into - maybe hold off on the mockery. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-conspiracy-theory/848434/16 "2020-02-24T19:15:12Z")
“Posts circulating on WeChat and Weibo?” My apologies, that sounds conclusive. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-conspiracy-theory/848434/17 "2020-02-24T19:16:10Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > From Tom Tildrum’s link: > I’d say this should be looked into - maybe hold off on the mockery. Because posts on WeChat and Weibo are reliable sources for information about this? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-conspiracy-theory/848434/18 "2020-02-24T19:26:09Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > “Posts circulating on WeChat and Weibo?” My apologies, that sounds conclusive. :rolleyes: Obviously not conclusive, but probably unwise to dismiss out of hand. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-conspiracy-theory/848434/19 "2020-02-24T19:36:52Z")
My _Corona virus Corona viral marketing campaign_ is from YouTube which is Google and Google has access to all human knowledge . . . therefore, much more believable? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-conspiracy-theory/848434/20 "2020-02-24T19:56:47Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Obviously not conclusive, but probably unwise to dismiss out of hand. I’m sure it was not dismissed out of hand, and people have looked into it. Yet there is still no evidence, just innuendo. I’m not arguing that there is a 0% chance the source was the lab. Maybe it was. But until there is some evidence – _any_ evidence – of that other than social media posts and click-bait fear mongering, then this remains a conspiracy theory. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-conspiracy-theory/848434.md?page=2)