From the links in the OP, there are some purported conspiracies.
Mainly the theory that the virus was at least being held at the lab and inadvertently released from the lab as the origin of the disease’s spread and that this leak was subsequently covered up by the Chinese government.
Beyond that, there have been theories out there either implicitly or explicitly claiming the virus was created in the lab as a bioweapon.
It is true the Chinese government is notorious for delaying or withholding information. But there’s no current evidence to indicate this should be taken as a sign they either covered up the release of the virus from a lab or that it was engineered and then accidentally released from that lab.
Sure, both as possible, but the available evidence leads away from it. The Chinese government isn’t exactly open with information, but that’s different from claiming they are actively creating false origin stories for the virus. Continuing to bang on that drum does veer into CT territory.
Mijin, under either theory, a specific event happened. Initial transmission was achieved somehow.
As far as I know, the only direct affirmative evidence for either theory is that there is a ready store of virus nearby (either the caves or the lab). Everything else as to either theory is inference.
F-P is pointing out that TroutMan’s citation is evidence against engineering or mutation in a cell culture, but not for mutation prior to collection. And while there is no evidence of cover-up, there is the directive from the Ministry criticizing the oversight and management of some virology facilities.
Either you have misunderstood the study, or I’m not following your argument.
This study investigated how an animal virus made the jump to humans. They immediately dismissed the bioengineered virus possibility, and then in my quoted section, showed why it is not probable that it came about through mutations within the lab that subsequently infected humans. I have been under the impression that you feel like the bat virus that is reportedly stored in the Wuhan facility might be the source. The virus they had collected from bat caves and kept in the facility was a possible precursor to COVID-19, but not the exact virus.
If you are arguing that they actually had COVID-19 at the facility, then I think that is incorrect. And if you are arguing that the first human was infected with an unmutated bat virus from the facility, and the human-transmittable COVID-19 came about through adaptation during subsequent human-to-human transmission, then again - you are arguing for something that has no evidence and is much less likely than several other possibilities.
As above, you evidently misunderstood that study, and I don’t have a lot to add to my prior post. However you do seem to be backing off a bit, as follows:
It’s very nice that you “think that is incorrect”, but that’s not the same as saying the study refuted that or even took a position on that. That’s nothing more than your opinion, and shouldn’t be presented as the conclusion of scientists who have studied it.
Same applies here. Adaption during human-to-human transmission is one of the two possibilities that the study specifically suggests. Your personal opinion that it’s unlikely that this was subsequent human-to-human transmission is nothing more than your opinion and should not be attributed to the study.
That’s the plausible conspiracy I think, yes, that it somehow involved a mistake by a lab in the area the Chinese govt knows about but refuses to acknowledge. Which would be very far from ‘so what’ if true. Even the much smaller known scandal of the authorities arresting the doctor who originally warned of the disease and later died of it for ‘lies against the social order’ or whatever is a big deal in China. If a govt facility’s mistake had anything at all to do with it that might actually threaten the CCP’s rule, or at least cause a very bloody episode to maintain it.
Again there isn’t AFAIK much evidence saying that’s true though. But it’s an ‘alternate theory’ which can’t be immediately dismissed based on simple logic (like for example a deliberate bio weapon attack on the world by the Chinese govt…that ravages China first? that doesn’t make any sense). But to dismiss a before the fact Chinese govt error out of hand you have to rely on information from the Chinese govt.
I agree that it would be shameful if the Chinese government did these things. And I agree that they may have done so. I disagree that this is a “conspiracy theory” in the way that term is normally used. It’s normally used to refer to conspiracies that hide bad intent from the get-go. A conspiracy theory would be, “The Chinese government purposely released this virus to see how it would affect the local community, but it got out of hand” or “China was developing a bio-weapon that went bad”, although even that’s not really a conspiracy theory. Every conspiracy theory I know of starts with purposeful bad intent, not just covering up an embarrassing mistake.
Well let me add to your “AFAIK”.
Most of the early cases had a direct link to the wet market. None of the early cases had a link to the virology lab.
Yes we can speculate that perhaps there are cases that have been kept hidden. We can never rule out (un-)known unknowns. That doesn’t change the fact that right now, one has supporting evidence, one does not.
And consider this: under the virology lab hypothesis, how did it come to be that so many cases were then at the wet market? If it was just chance, that’s quite a coincidence that of all the places it could take hold, it happened to be the only other urban environment that had a possible mechanism for being the origin of a new-to-humans respiratory virus.
If it was planted there directly, why? This virus has been devastating to China.
I’m going to have to respond to Fotheringay-Phipps in a couple days time: I’m on the road, and I don’t have time to to respond to all his stuff.
We have reports that they stored the potential bat precursor virus there. I have seen no reports or evidence that they had COVID-19 stored there before humans were infected. It’s nice that you think that they did or were likely to, but that’s not the same as saying that it’s anything more than a CT.
Here’s another Coronavirus conspiracy, Trump did it, releasing the virus in foreign countries to further slow down/halt immigration and give him more authority and power to do so. He already has asked for billions to help fight it, about half of which goes to homeland security - cite on Trump’s request for funding: Trump Wants $2.5 Billion to Fight the Coronavirus. Is It Enough?
That might be a bit far out, but it’s definitely true that the CCP takes responsibility for almost just about nothing. They never “lose fair”; ***everything that goes against them must somehow be the result of something outside, working against them. ***
Okay, I confess. I did it. It’s all my fault. I pulled out the old AC Gilbert inorganic and atomic chemistry sets I was given as a child and whose components I kept refilling. I recently played with the stuff and developed a virus. It’s easy. I’d also built a shortwave receiver and sought DSL cards from stations worldwide. I enclosed return postage… with my secret brew layered on the stamps’ adhesives. Whoever licked them was infected. I mailed a few to broadcasters around Wuhan. The rest is history.
Now you know the truth. Enjoy your conspiracy theories. They’re entertaining, yes?
Given that the Chinese Communist government has terrible oversight over the environment, A habit of covering up failures, a low regard for individual human life, and the ability and willingness to silence people whenever it suits them, I’m not sure we should take their word for anything.
I wouldn’t claim the virus was engineered, or that it was a bioweapon. If the virus did get out of a lab by accident, that mistake is responsible for tens of thousands of deaths and trillions of dollars in damage.
China has a history of terrible biological practices. Its scientists have been caught multiple times travelling with deadly viral agents undeclared in checked luggage. Their oversight is terrible.
If you believe government regulation is necessary to protect us from shoddy products in the marketplace, why aren’t you demanding at least inspections and enhanced oversight of Chinese biological labs, when mistakes by them can have drastic global consequences?
Why are you willing to entrust the health of global populations to the word of the CCP that they have everything under control? This is the country that has killed millions of its own people through indifference and neglect for decades, and who has allowed pollution to reach deadly levels in its cities. Why the concerted effort to avoid blaming China and their shitty health practices and oversight?
For about the 10th time, no-one is saying Just trust the CCP. We have actual evidence of it coming from the wet market. We have nothing for the virology lab.
Let’s flip it around. You know how there’s that fuckdumb CT about the US military planting Covid in Wuhan during the military games? Well imagine someone then posts a rant here saying “Why do you guys all trust America so much? Don’t you think Trump lies? Look at all the terrible things the US has done in middle east wars, in propping up dictators etc etc”.
It’s a silly argument. Let’s see the evidence.
It’s a dreadful article though; how can they write so much and yet present no good evidence and make numerous errors and loaded language?
e.g. They say the virus lab is close to the wet market. As I pointed out earlier, some people have gotten confused here with a building with “disease center” in its name (scary!) and the virology lab, which is actually 30km away from the market.
We can understand why internet CTs would believe this (who are always going to believe the version of the facts that fits), not a legitimate news site.
Then you have stuff like suggesting that because 33% of early cases were not from the wet market, that “raised suspicions” that the virus lab was the source. By what screwed up logic does that make sense?
I could go on, because this is the tone throughout.
The absence of evidence doesn’t mean that evidence can’t be found. I am also not thoroughly convinced that any “evidence” or lack of it can be trusted where the Chinese government is concerned.
For the record, I believe that the Wuhan wet markets were at the epicenter of the initial outbreak - I think there’s sufficient evidence to that effect, some of which was corroborated by visiting health officials from Taiwan if I’m not mistaken. But it’s not irrational to be suspicious of the evolving government narrative of China’s government and their hyper-aggressive propaganda efforts in Europe and the Americas. Governments without something to hide don’t typically behave in that fashion, and I’m not saying that because I’m holding up the US or even the EU governments as paragons of virtue.
The US is hardly the paragon of virtue here said the pot to the kettle. Not sure if you missed tuning into dear leader’s daily propaganda performances and follow up spin. So, what does trump have to hide? And covid ain’t his first cover up cough cough Mueller report cough cough.
Given that dogs don’t get left home alone anymore, and get twice as many walks as they used to, I wouldn’t put the virus past them. I had a border collie that was definitely smart enough to do genetic engineering.