Yeah, there’s a lot of weird stuff happening because of the political side of this.
Ordinarily, I’d say it wouldn’t be enough to just go by a person’s word, but a doctor’s diagnosis even without a test should be enough. For example, my whole family got Covid. Only two of us had official tests. The other two had home tests. I could have easily wound up with no proof of infection, except that I happened to take a picture of my home test.* But my doctor didn’t need my home test to diagnose me with Covid – two members of my household had it, and I developed symptoms while caring for them. I also had clear Covid symptoms including loss of sense of smell and shortness of breath.
But, of course, there are doctors out there on one side of the political spectrum who are willing to sign off on “I had a cough two months ago” as having recovered from covid.
*I had intended to get a PCR test to follow up, but I spaced on my appointment because I was still really busy taking care of everyone. If, months later, I needed proof that I’d been infected, I wouldn’t have had anything but my doctor’s diagnosis based on my symptoms and my family’s test results. Of course, the solution to folks not being able to prove it is for them to just get vaccinated… It was lucky I snapped the picture because I did need to send that in to get the antibody treatment.
I know of two articles from the CDC that demonstrate that vaccination provides better immunity and two other articles (from Qatar and Israel) that show that natural immunity is more protective. The article @puzzlegal is a compilation of several articles. Most those studies have timelines prior to the delta surge except for the Israel study. They also don’t include the CDC publications for some reason. All studies show that natural immunity + vaccination provides the best protection. They’re scattered throughout these threads.
I personally think that if the aunt can show you all her antibody test, you may want to consider including her. If she refuses to show the antibody test, I wouldn’t trust her.
I’ve seen studies of longevity of protection of infection, and studies of longevity of protection from vaccination. But i don’t think I’ve ever seen a study that compared the two on the same basis.
Yeah, I was suspicious of the test not being genuine, because she wouldn’t still have antibodies 19 months or so after she recovered.
Brother-in-law who works in medical biotech pointed out the other explanation: She’s already had covid again, recently. My money is on this.
That does mean she might be less of a risk, depending on how recent it was. But, it also is harder to think of having any kind of positive interaction with her. She has a fairly high exposure job, both for herself and her clients. Brother-in-law asked my partner, "How many people has she killed? I can’t say I disagree with putting it that way, even if it is a bit dramatic.
Apparently the weekly testing at her job only started recently, and according to my partner it might stop being an option as opposed to vaccination. I hope so. Although I’ll be annoyed too if she gets vaccinated to save her job, but wouldn’t do it to protect her mother or the vulnerable people she works with.
But all the studies I’ve read say that having had COVID and getting vaccinated provide stronger protection than either vaccination alone or COVID alone, so in order of effective protection against COVID, would the order go like this?
COVID and vaccination
COVID alone
Vaccination alone
And another question It’s been pretty convincingly determined that the vaccine is not as effective in immune-compromised people, and that these people may require a third shot. For those immune-compromised people who survive COVID, is their natural immunity just as weak as it is with the vaccine?
Have any of these studies focused on which variant the person got? Because it would seem likely that Kooky Aunt got the original strain. She definitely would not have gotten Delta, as it was not circulating yet (and most likely did not yet exist).
As I said, the main reason I am dubious is the studies that show that a single shot of the mRNA vaccines are only around 30% protective. And they were designed based on the original strain. J&J does better, but is still worse than two shots of the mRNA vaccines.
Since a vaccine on the original strain is less effective on delta, that suggests (but does not prove) that an infection with the original virus would be less effective on delta. And there are plenty of reports of people who were infected with the original strain and later infected with delta, both times being symptomatic.
Also, are the tests she is doing for work the PCR test that is unlikely to have a false positive, or the faster antigen tests? I suspect that would be relevant, along with the provenance of this claimed antibody test.
Probably. Especially if they got an antibody infusion and other medical help, and might not have recovered in their own.
People who are vaccinated can spread covid, too. I’m fully vaccinated. I had a booster shot. I’m still wearing a mask around my (immune compromised) mom to protect her, because I’ve started leaving my house and potentially risking exposure.
I think every other country treats “recent recovery” like vaccination. I don’t think the aunt is crazy. And if you want her to get immunized for you, I’d word it that way. “hey, you may be as protected from the virus as you’d be from the vaccine. But i see studies that you’d be even better protected with both. And it would make me feel a lot safer with you if you were also vaccinated. Can you please do it for my sake, even if you don’t think it matters.”
Recent recovery, perhaps, but she’s not recently recovered (as far as we know). She had COVID-19 in 2020. Even if had somehow gotten vaccinated back then, it would be time for her to get a booster, since immunity wanes in between 6 and 8 months later. I very much doubt she’s as safe as those who got the vaccine more recently.
Plus I read the “kooky aunt” thing and the talk of her getting into argument with the OP’s brother-in-law about the how the virus works to indicate that she’s actually either antivax or at least into conspiracy theories about the virus.
My feeling is that if you’re vaccinated, the effect of getting COVID would be greatly tempered. A bad case might be on par with getting the flu. Of course no one wants that, but we all deal with flu season just fine. The chance of getting hospitalized or worse is pretty low unless there’s some reason you are at deadly risk for illness in general. With that in mind, I don’t think it’s worth the emotional stress and strain of putting requirements on friends and family to get vaccinated or wear masks. The pandemic has done a lot of damage to personal relationships. I don’t think it’s worth damaging them more for a marginal reduction in personal risk. I’m willing to take the risk of getting COVID to be able to be with friends and family in a relaxed and comfortable environment. I think it’s fine if someone wants to make the personal choice to mask up or take other precautions, but I don’t think it’s really worth the stress and long-term detrimental effects to the relationship to ask them to meet certain requirements.
The Danish government have, a few days ago, set the corona-passport to be valid six months after having had corona and twelve months after vaccination. They claim it is based on research, but I don’t know who and where that research was done.
I don’t think infection is comparable to one shot. It’s been shown to be comparable to full vaccination. It is only one exposure, but the body was exposed over a long time and fully fought the infection.
I agree that she didn’t get delta the first time and would be vulnerable to it. She may have already gotten Covid again.
Well, she is the kooky aunt for various and sundry other beliefs she’s espoused over the years. And she is not just refusing the vaccine based on her belief that she’s protected --.why wouldn’t you want to be even more protected and get vaccinated? She got angry that her elderly mother got vaccinated. Her older sister helps their mother make healthcare decisions.
She has some kind of belief about “natural immunity” being better or something, and obviously something against the vaccine.
Well, this I have personal experience with. My partner and I both just had breakthrough cases. Mine was comparable to a bad case of the flu. I’m about 2 weeks past the end of my quarantine and I’m still exhausted, have headaches and muscle aches, and can’t smell. My partner got pneumonia and was on the verge of needing to be hospitalized. She’s still short of breath and exhausted, and having headaches as well. Don’t take a breakthrough case lightly.
Sorry if I’m posting more than my fair share in this thread. I find the subject really interesting, as an ignorance-fighter I often try to educate myself when facts seem to line up in counterintuitive ways, and I obviously also have a personal stake in this particular discussion, in several ways.
I’ve done a bit more reading, and I’m mildly annoyed at the CDC now. Their media release page about one of their studies is headlined “New CDC Study: Vaccination Offers Higher Protection than Previous COVID-19 Infection.”
But what they actually compared was a cohort that had previously been infected with covid to a cohort that had previously been infected with covid and then subsequently vaccinated. It’s useful information, for sure. I hope everyone who’s previously had covid gets vaccinated, and it’s great to have this data, but I think the title is misleading without the addition of some words. I don’t think the study actually addresses the question implied by the title.
The point of the CDC study and part of the Israeli data is the most important take-away, of course, and both the CDC and Israeli research agree on this – having infection-induced immunity* plus vaccine-induced immunity is like the gold standard of immunity. It’s incredibly protective, including being demonstrably more protective against new variants than either type of immunity alone. (See above Science article.)
*I am going to use these more precise terms because I think the term “natural immunity” is being politicized, and suggests that vaccine-induced immunity is somehow not “natural,” which can be a charged word. It’s still the natural reaction of your immune system, whether the trigger is an infection or an injection, in my view.
This is the reason I’m always low grade pissed off at hubs.
He got COVID and then slightly over 6 weeks later came down with Delta. How many people did he kill? He was a Marine, he joined to protect America, but spent a couple of years killing innocent children and old people.
We went out to dinner tonight. One of the servers knows us, but was not serving us tonight. He’s fully vaccinated, but he said he caught COVID two months ago. He said he really didn’t like not tasting his coffee in the morning. It sucked to drink coffee and it ‘just tastes like warm’.
