# Corporal punishment in schools
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-in-schools/536435
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 17, 2010, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-in-schools/536435 "2010-04-17T04:54:22Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2010, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-in-schools/536435/1 "2010-04-17T04:54:22Z")
I’d always thought that this had been banned federally for years. Turns out more than 200,000 kids are punished corporally in schools every year. [Now a high school in Temple, Texas is bringing back the paddle.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/15/AR2010041505964.html?g=0) There are 18 year olds in high schools. Lots of them. At that point isn’t it up to the individual whether he’s willing to be paddled or not, seeing as he’s an adult? I can’t imagine an 18 year old, or a 17 or 16 year old, for that matter, being told to bend over a desk and take a paddling from a teacher.
Personally, if I ever have children, chances are I’ll spank them. But I wouldn’t want someone else laying a hand on my child. Also, if I’m wrong, go ahead and correct me, but I imagine that male children are far more likely to be paddled for misbehaving than female children are.
I’m still getting over the shock that corporal punishment still takes place in schools at all. Guess I need a reality check from the SDMB to fix me up.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2010, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-in-schools/536435/2 "2010-04-17T05:08:19Z")
It strikes me as pretty disgusting. Among other things, it’s practically an endorsement of violent bullying. Go ahead, argue that you shouldn’t beat up people who can’t fight back, when you are yourself beating on people who can’t fight back.
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### Author:  [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2010, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-in-schools/536435/3 "2010-04-17T05:13:23Z")
Every bit of evidence shows that violence towards children in any form has no positive effect on behavior and leads only to violent predispositions and personality disorders later in life. But in this country, science can’t stand up to the power of “my short-tempered alcoholic daddy hit me and I turned out great” or religious beliefs about child abuse being awesome.
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### Author:  [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2010, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-in-schools/536435/4 "2010-04-17T05:17:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> It strikes me as pretty disgusting. Among other things, it’s practically an endorsement of violent bullying. Go ahead, argue that you shouldn’t beat up people who can’t fight back, when you are yourself beating on people who can’t fight back.
Can’t a similar argument be made for most forms of punishment?
We had corporal punishment when I was in school and I got paddled a few times. It wasn’t a big deal to me. Of course, as I have been told often enough, the universe doesn’t revolve around me (but it should). I don’t really think corporal punishment belongs in our public schools.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2010, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-in-schools/536435/5 "2010-04-17T05:20:01Z")
> [@Odesio](#):
>
> Can’t a similar argument be made for most forms of punishment?
Only if they involve beating on people, and only if the only reason you act that way is because they can’t fight back. This isn’t like jail time or a fine; this is like a cop pistol whipping someone.
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### Author:  [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2010, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-in-schools/536435/6 "2010-04-17T05:27:26Z")
How is the distinction relevant, besides your own preference for one form of arbitrary punishment over another?
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2010, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-in-schools/536435/7 "2010-04-17T05:41:22Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#):
>
> This isn’t like jail time or a fine; this is like a cop pistol whipping someone.
Technically, no it isn’t, because a pistol-whipping from a cop is not a legally permitted form of punishment like fines or imprisonment, while a paddling from the principal **is** a legally permitted punishment in school districts that sanction its use.
Personally, I’m not in favor of corporal punishment in schools myself. But it’s silly to pretend that there’s no substantial difference between paddling as a recognized part of an official punishment system on the one hand, and rogue cops illegally beating up suspects on the other.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2010, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-in-schools/536435/8 "2010-04-17T05:43:08Z")
> [@athelas](#):
>
> How is the distinction relevant, besides your own preference for one form of arbitrary punishment over another?
Hitting people is more brutal, and causes worse long term psychological effects. It is also inconsistent to use a form of punishment that you are exempt from; the teacher and parents aren’t being beaten when they do something wrong.
This sends a clear message to kids; that it is right to beat on people who are smaller and weaker than yourselves. I also expect that the teachers and parents who support “corporal punishment” (which sounds ever so much more clinical and civilized than “beating kids”) are the same ones who don’t care about bullying in the first place. Or who actively encourage the bullies and punish those victims who fight back or tattle. After all, they themselves are bullies.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2010, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-in-schools/536435/9 "2010-04-17T05:44:10Z")
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> Technically, no it isn’t, because a pistol-whipping from a cop is not a legally permitted form of punishment like fines or imprisonment, while a paddling from the principal **is** a legally permitted punishment in school districts that sanction its use.
That’s a legal distinction, not a practical one.
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2010, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-in-schools/536435/10 "2010-04-17T05:56:12Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#):
>
> That’s a legal distinction, not a practical one.
It’s practical too. As **Odesio** pointed out, **all** forms of punishment, not just corporal punishment, are imposed on people who can’t fight back: the helplessness of the convict against the system is what makes punishment possible.
Including a mild form of corporal punishment in an official punishment code is substantially different, both legally and practically, from a vindictive or brutal cop deliberately taking advantage of a suspect’s helplessness to illegally assault the suspect for his own satisfaction.
> [@Der Trihs](#):
>
> Hitting people is more brutal, and causes worse long term psychological effects.
This, on the other hand, I find quite plausible. Officially sanctioned and regulated corporal punishment may be a lot less bad than arbitrary illegal police brutality, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t still bad.
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### Author:  [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2010, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-in-schools/536435/11 "2010-04-17T07:37:39Z")
I do not support hitting other people at all. The eighteen year olds are not required to be in school and could probably refuse the corporal punishment. They might have to drop out of school though.
Also to be considered for the eighteen year old: She or he may be more likely to end up arrested if there is trouble with fighting.
When I was in second grade, one of the third grade teachers broke a child’s collar bone with a paddle. I was terrified that I would have that teacher the next year. Fortunately, I didn’t. Children shouldn’t have to live in physical fear of their teachers or their parents.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2010, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-in-schools/536435/12 "2010-04-17T08:02:40Z")
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> It’s practical too. As **Odesio** pointed out, **all** forms of punishment, not just corporal punishment, are imposed on people who can’t fight back: the helplessness of the convict against the system is what makes punishment possible.
Wrong. Convicts have legal recourses and appeals. Nor are they as weak or inexperienced as children.
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### Author:  [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2010, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-in-schools/536435/13 "2010-04-17T08:12:29Z")
I’ll be gobsmacked if there hasn’t been one instance where the person about to receive the paddle hasn’t took the paddle off the teacher and shoved it where the sun don’t shine. Unless the teachers are very choosy who they paddle? Perhaps it’s just the ones with the plump bumcheeks and little propensity for retaliation?
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### Author:  [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2010, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-in-schools/536435/14 "2010-04-17T08:13:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> This sends a clear message to kids; that it is right to beat on people who are smaller and weaker than yourselves.
I disagree: I suggest rather it sends a clear message to children that certain actions will have sharp and painful consequences.
I think corporal punishment is best used with younger children, because they have less concept of time and responsibility. Once they become teenagers, it’s time to move on to more educational punishments.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2010, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-in-schools/536435/15 "2010-04-17T08:20:51Z")
> [@Quartz](#):
>
> I disagree: I suggest rather it sends a clear message to children that certain actions will have sharp and painful consequences.
Not when the teacher themselves is indulging in that very action.
Besides, it’s my understanding that applying pain as a punishment pretty consistently creates increased aggression in the long term. Whether it’s spanking kids who get into fights in later years, or torturing dissidents who turn into guerrillas/terrorists. That’s just the way humans work.
> [@Quartz](#):
>
> I think corporal punishment is best used with younger children, because they have less concept of time and responsibility. Once they become teenagers, it’s time to move on to more educational punishments.
In other words, when they are big enough to fight back.
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### Author:  [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2010, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-in-schools/536435/16 "2010-04-17T08:27:47Z")
> [@Quartz](#):
>
> I disagree: I suggest rather it sends a clear message to children that certain actions will have sharp and painful consequences.
>
> I think corporal punishment is best used with younger children, because they have less concept of time and responsibility.
So, saying “The next time you do that, you are going to get a paddling!” is going to have a great deal of effect, isn’t it? You’ve just defeated your own argument.
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### Author:  [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2010, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-in-schools/536435/17 "2010-04-17T08:47:50Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#):
>
> Every bit of evidence shows that violence towards children in any form has no positive effect on behavior…
This is my understanding as well. If so then any educator who paddles a child should be drummed out of their profession. But is it so?
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2010, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-in-schools/536435/18 "2010-04-17T09:02:47Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#):
>
> Every bit of evidence shows that violence towards children in any form has no positive effect on behavior and leads only to violent predispositions and personality disorders later in life. But in this country, science can’t stand up to the power of “my short-tempered alcoholic daddy hit me and I turned out great” or religious beliefs about child abuse being awesome.
Violence towards children isn’t the goal. I suspect that if you examine a class full of children, only one or two of them will ever earn a paddling out of 30 or 40. Those one or two children might very well do poorly regardless of whether they are paddled or not. They might very well become more abusive in later life. The question is the other 30 or so students. If you do your research focusing on the 1 or 2 who get paddled, you’ll find that they do poorly in school, that they are antagonistic towards their teachers, etc. But you would _expect_ to see that. Someone who knows what the result of misbehavior is and then misbehaves is someone who is seeking negative attention and has spotted a way to attain that. In end result, you might find that he does worse where there is corporal punishment.
But all of the time that you are looking at these one or two misbehavers and their negative outcomes, your analysis is missing what the other students are doing. They are getting first hand evidence of personal folly early in life. They’re learning to be attentive and cooperative with their teacher. In the end balance, making 1 or 2 students’ future prospects marginally lower–when he was the one who almost certainly _already_ had the poorest future prospects–for the sake of making 28 or 29 students’ future prospects marginally higher is overall a net gain to society.
If I look at a study, a study has a far easier time of looking at the number of dropouts, the number of student-teacher altercations, etc. than in tracing students through the rest of their life to see what the average prospects of all of the students was. But the important question isn’t how to decrease the number of dropouts and the number of student-teacher altercations, it’s what creates the best overall result for society over the life of the individual. If there’s a study that researches that and says that corporal punishment has no positive effect, then sure, I’ll buy that. But until I do see just such a study, I have to go on what I’ve personally seen. In my experience, students who respect their teacher perform better on average, except the 1 guy who gets his jollies off by screwing himself over. I know that religious and private schools, where it’s more likely that teachers have a higher ability to put their students in their place, generally turn out more students who do better in later life. And I know that a teacher who can be easily overran by his students doesn’t accomplish anything at all.
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### Author:  [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2010, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-in-schools/536435/19 "2010-04-17T09:10:02Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> But all of the time that you are looking at these one or two misbehavers and their negative outcomes, your analysis is missing what the other students are doing. They are getting first hand evidence of personal folly early in life. They’re learning to be attentive and cooperative with their teacher. In the end balance, making 1 or 2 students’ future prospects marginally lower–when he was the one who almost certainly _already_ had the poorest future prospects–for the sake of making 28 or 29 students’ future prospects marginally higher is overall a net gain to society.
Hang on, are you advocating that the punishment should be administered in front of the class, too?
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2010, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-in-schools/536435/20 "2010-04-17T09:17:38Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> Hang on, are you advocating that the punishment should be administered in front of the class, too?
When someone is punished, their fellow students are generally aware of this. That might be due to gossip, due to seeing the student marched out to meet his fate, or because they saw the punishment take place. When I said, “first hand evidence of personal folly”, I only meant that they were _somehow_ aware that punishment can and really does occur due to behaving like an ass, not that they saw the actual punishment take place with their own eyes.
That is to say, you read too much into it.
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