# Corporal Punishment should not be reintroduced in School? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2013, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086 "2013-03-27T10:12:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086/21 "2013-03-28T18:01:05Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I think it should be reintroduced in the schools. > > Actions have consequences. And sometimes negative reinforcement teaches a lesson better than positive reinforcement. Studies have shown that the specific negative consequence “corporal punishment” is ONLY effective at teaching the lesson of “stop that right now”–all other misbehavior categories rise in response to corporal punishment, including recidivism. As with many other things, you don’t have to rely on your intuition anymore–we have actual data about how actual children are affected by actions. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086/22 "2013-03-28T18:45:55Z")
Corporal punishment is also used disproportionately against black and male children. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086/23 "2013-03-28T20:27:14Z")
[Isn’t it legal in a lot of the South? According to this map, corporal punishment at home is actually legal in all of the fifty states; is that true (because I often heart that it wasn’t)?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Corporal_punishment_in_the_United_States.svg) ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086/24 "2013-03-28T21:31:13Z")
As far as I know, it’s still legal in Illinois, but opt-in. It never happened (that I know of) at my school, but every year my parents still had to fill out a form saying “No way!” to corporal punishment. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086/25 "2013-03-28T22:18:25Z")
Back in the day, I used to be for it. Then, I once heard a teacher explain that she found it intolerable that another adult would be hitting her child, in one form or another. It caused me to reflect, also, on the fact that I had had more severe corporal punishment, many times, than my equally guilty peers. The usual difference between us, that I could note, was that they were of a better socioeconomic class than I was. This made me appreciate that teachers could be quite evil when they had power over some children, and should not have the power to physically punish them. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086/26 "2013-03-28T22:31:19Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Corporal punishment is also used disproportionately against black and male children. “Girls have more delicate heinies.” ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086/27 "2013-03-29T01:05:15Z")
> [@grama](#): > > As have been said before in this board. Negative reinforcement, is still reinforcement, which is different from punishment, please learn the difference. Since corporal punishment is positive punishment, what’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086/28 "2013-03-29T01:47:31Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Since corporal punishment is positive punishment, what’s your point? **grama** was responding to **Clothahump** , who was using the term “negative reinforcement” incorrectly. ---
**Author:** ![Weeping\_Wyvern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@Weeping\_Wyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weeping_Wyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086/29 "2013-03-29T02:53:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because it’s brutal, hypocritical\* and counterproductive. > \*Yes, “don’t hit other people, but stand still while we hit you” is hypocritical. Indeed, but the schools aren’t claiming that all hitting is wrong. They’re simply claiming that hitting without proper authorization is wrong. So no hypocrisy there. That said, I think scholastic corporeal punishment is generally a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![esmeralda2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ccd318/32.png) [@esmeralda2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/esmeralda2)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086/30 "2013-03-29T03:40:45Z")
> [@hardikgoyals](#): > > Why do you think the Corporal Punishment should not be reintroduced in Schools?😉 Because teachers should not be hitting students. No one should be hitting anyone. Besides, it doesn’t work. It doesn’t work any better than capital punishment works to prevent crime. There are other, more effective ways to manage student behavior. Hitting them is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086/31 "2013-03-29T12:01:02Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > (snip)This made me appreciate that teachers could be quite evil when they had power over some children, and should not have the power to physically punish them. Yes, but after all, learning is what school is for, and see what a valuable lesson you learned. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086/32 "2013-03-29T12:04:01Z")
> [@Weeping\_Wyvern](#): > > Indeed, but the schools aren’t claiming that all hitting is wrong. They’re simply claiming that hitting without proper authorization is wrong. So no hypocrisy there. Nonsense, the people who are doing the hitting would never tolerate being hit themselves, authorization or not. It’s about the powerful striking those who can’t fight back, and any student is going to know that. It’s institutionalized bullying, nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086/33 "2013-03-29T13:13:31Z")
I am barely - barely - still in favor of parents spanking, occasionally, not in rage, and only for extreme infractions. I am not in favor of some stranger beating our kids, not even their teacher. Honestly, you think it’s ok to let someone beat your kids? Someone they might have for one year? Someone they may never meet again? Someone you don’t know all that well? You have no idea if they’re beating out of rage or what. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086/34 "2013-03-29T15:12:19Z")
No one has mentioned water boarding. . . ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086/35 "2013-03-29T15:51:04Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > No one has mentioned water boarding. . . …or the idea they used to use back in the good ol’ days of America where they would pin a girl to the wall by their hair so that they are on the tips of their toes. The idea is that if they get tired and have to stand normally (not on their toes), then it yanks their hair (which really hurts), and if they don’t, then their feet hurt and get fatigued. Quite painful…I can’t imagine watching a girl suffer through that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2013, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086/36 "2013-03-30T06:02:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Except that the lessons it teaches are _“violence is a valid method of getting what you want”_, _“the powerful have the right to brutalize those weaker than them”_, and _“those in authority are enemies to be hated and destroyed”_. That wasn’t the lessons we learned. The lesson when I went to school is you got punished if you continued to misbehave. Rarely was it used. In fact the only time I ever saw it was in shop class. They didn’t put up with students horsing around industrial machinery that could kill people. That was at a time where we didn’t worry about kids shooting up schools. We brought guns to school for after school shooting clubs. It’s not the spanking that made the difference, it was the mindset that made the difference. We weren’t allowed to be whinny-ass argumentative snowflakes who got a trophy for showing up for school. We were expected to behave, do the homework and pass the tests given. Our parents would back a teacher who punished us regardless of the type of punishment given. That’s what’s missing in a great number of schools. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2013, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086/37 "2013-03-30T07:19:38Z")
Won’t somebody think of the pervy sadomasochistic teachers? ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086/38 "2013-04-01T15:42:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Except that the lessons it teaches are _“violence is a valid method of getting what you want”_, _“the powerful have the right to brutalize those weaker than them”_, and _“those in authority are enemies to be hated and destroyed”_. Is there no middle ground with you? Does sending a child to their room teach them that kidnapping is OK? Does withholding dessert teach them that starvation is OK? I’m opposed to spanking in schools but this hyperbolic rhetoric is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086/39 "2013-04-01T17:27:27Z")
> [@grama](#): > > (+)reinforcement: If you do X I’ll give you Y. (where Y is something desirable) > > (-)reinforcement: If you do X, you won’t have to do Y. (where Y is something undesirable) > > (+)punishment: if you do (or don’t do) X, I’ll Give/Do Y to you (where Y is undesirable). > > (-)punishment: if you do (or don’t do) X, you don’t get to do Y (where Y is desirable). I would change the definition of negative reinforcement to: You will suffer Y until you do X. As soon as you do X, Y will stop. In my case, as a teacher, Y was almost always me standing at the student’s desk and bugging the _shit_ out of them by saying " . . . go do this, do this now, put your stuff up and do this, you really need to do this, if you don’t do this I’ll never shut up, go do this, do this now . . ." It worked with kids from Kindergarten through 12th grade. The one time it escalated, the student got up to get their stuff and I heard him mutter “chingao tu madre” (“go fuck your mother”). He got a three day suspension. He did not get paddled. The problem with having corporal punishment as an option, aside from what other posters have noticed, is that: - it disrupts the flow of the class, because discipline should be dealt out on the spot. Having to go through the entire process of getting out of their desk, going up to the front of the room, bending over, blah blah blah, takes a lot of time, it gets everyone’s attention (because it’s also supposed to serve as a deterrent, so you want the other kids to see it), and it completely derails whatever learning was happening. - it’s vindictive as hell. You are intentionally causing pain to a child. It’s almost never done as a “more in sadness than in anger” option. It’s an “I’ll show you, you little brat” impulse when a student is causing you to lose emotional control in front of the class. - there are almost no students for whom this is a proportionate response. It’s either the kids who think it’s the stupidest thing ever and shrug it off, or it’s the kids who are utterly crushed and humiliated by it. - the kids who act out badly enough to “earn” a spanking are the ones who are already enduring some manner of physical abuse at home or elsewhere. You’ve just surrendered the chance to ever reach them and earn their trust. So, no. While it’s been tempting a couple of times, I am against corporal punishment in the classroom. If a student is so disruptive and disrespectful that spanking them sounds like a good idea, they should be removed from the classroom and sent to the office for more involved discipline. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086/40 "2013-04-01T17:55:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Except that the lessons it teaches are _“violence is a valid method of getting what you want”_, _“the powerful have the right to brutalize those weaker than them”_, and _“those in authority are enemies to be hated and destroyed”_. Totally incorrect. I realize that is the current buzzword way of thinking, but the reality is that it teaches kids that actions have consequences. And that’s not being taught these days by either parents or schools. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-should-not-be-reintroduced-in-school/654086.md?page=3)