# Corporal Punishment - Yay or nay? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2008, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075 "2008-10-08T21:51:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075/101 "2008-10-10T02:10:00Z")
> [@Oregon\_sunshine](#): > > Really and truly, I thought no one ever read my posts. So, has anyone taken the time yet to _really_ remember what it was like to be a small child and to get “spanked”? As a kid, I was always terrified of spankings, but more of the idea than the actuality. My parents spanked us fairly often but never hard enough to leave marks - it was more the humiliation of it all that affected me most. I do think spanking worked for us, in that we were well-behaved children and grew up to be fairly decent human beings. However I don’t think it’s strictly necessary unless as a last resort, and only for a few years (like between three and eight, maybe). In my experience (as a teacher anyway) most kids over that age can be punished effectively in other ways. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075/102 "2008-10-10T02:10:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I am in favor of flogging, Wednesdays, round at my place. Definitely Wednesdays; never could get the hang of Thursdays. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075/103 "2008-10-10T02:24:44Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Why? You already admitted that spanking is illegal in some places in the U.S.: > > If spanking is legal most places (not “everywhere,” but “most places”) in the U.S., then by your definition it’s illegal some places in the U.S. > > IOW, your post is my cite. Uh, no. My post is what’s known as a “qualifier” . _Most_ means the majority, which could mean everywhere. I obviously can’t know the laws in every state. Yet your post of: > [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > **In some places it is** suggests there actually is a place that outlaws spanking. This outrageous stand demands a cite. Now cite or fade away in honor. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075/104 "2008-10-10T03:31:08Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Occasionally, **glee** (and others), it _is_ necessary to hit adults, teenagers, and animals. > > Force can be used, like any other tool, for good or bad. It gets a bad reputation because people like Hitler and were so fond of using it. > > Are the people in this thread who are totally against corporal punishment also extreme pacifists? I don’t see how you can accept that occasionally force is needed to impose your (our, society’s, whatever) will on someone or something else but claim that it is _never_ necessary in the case of children. We use the force of the military and our economy to further our national interests in foreign countries; we use force to punish criminals and prevent them from committing more crimes; we use force to teach our dogs not to piss on the carpet. > > And yet children are so tender, so precious and so terrifyingly fragile that using force to teach them a lesson is evil? > > There is a lesson to be learned through force: you will have to answer to somebody (ultimately society) for your actions. And yes, part of that lesson is that force is occasionally necessary, but that it is powerful and should be used sparingly and for good. > > Now, that said, I don’t think that it is necessary to hit children all that often. Mostly it is necessary when children are completely out of control and that is usually due to bad parenting already. If children are taught decently from the beginning, and force is kept to a minimum, I have no doubt that most children never need to be hit in their entire life. I’ve never hit my 2-year old and don’t see it ever being necessary. But I’m not going to say that it is _never_ necessary for _any_ child. And parents who do it aren’t necessarily bad. Sums up my feelings on the subject exactly. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075/105 "2008-10-10T08:46:13Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Uh, no. My post is what’s known as a “qualifier” . Known as a qualifier? Known to whom? You? You wrote what you wrote. Retract, or live with it. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075/106 "2008-10-10T12:04:52Z")
In other words, PRR, you can’t provide a cite bcause you don’t have one. **Pkbites** used a choice of words that allow you some (imaginary) weasel room and you’re trying to exploit that. I haven’t acknowledged that spanking is illegal anywhere in the US. I want to see a cite for that claim on your part. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075/107 "2008-10-10T12:05:31Z")
Why would he retract it? He’s right. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075/108 "2008-10-10T12:07:19Z")
Really? [ABC News says he’s not.](http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3924024) Besides, I said I wanted a cite, not a retraction. If he can’t provide a cite, then a retraction is in order. ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075/109 "2008-10-10T12:12:17Z")
That article says that it’s legal in all US states, but banned in several countries. So yeah, he’s right, if you’re talking worldwide and not just the US. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075/110 "2008-10-10T12:16:39Z")
Why should I be be arsed to look up stuff that \*\*Pkbites \*\*concedes is so? Yeah, those weasel words–you know, the crap you post here–come in awfully handy sometimes. You folks shoot yourselves in the feet, right and left, and then you want me to patch you up at my own expense? Dream on. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075/111 "2008-10-10T12:21:12Z")
PRR said: > [@](#): > > If you find yourself hitting your kid, for any reason, turn yourself in at the nearest police station at the very moment you come to your senses, and throw yourself before the mercy of the court. If you have an extenuating circumstance (“This is the first tme I ever hit my kid, Your Honor, and I’m deeply ashamed and will promise never to do it again”) you’ll probably get off with a slap, and it’s a slap far less severe than you meted out in your court of justice. > [@](#): > > In some places it is, though. And in most places when a spanking crosses the line into a beating, or a brutal beating, it may constitute assault. Why not test it out by asking your local constabulary if you’ve committed a crime? If you’ve done nothing wrong, he’ll just tell you, “I’m busy, don’t bother me with such petty stuff,” and you’re good (in the law’s lights). But offenders are very poor judges of their transgressions, and great justifiers of them, so why not try getting an independent view? Even if you get arrested (unlikely, but possible) you’ll get a hearing before a judge to determine if you’ve broken the law. Again, there’s no danger to you, because every court in the land views spanking as a desirable parenting tool, so why not take the chance and prove me wrong? His statements are ambiguous. He didn’t indicate whether he meant in the US or worldwide. Since it is apparently illegal in some places outside the US, it should have been simple for him to provide a cite for at least one of those places. He has, to date, failed to do that. He made the claim, he provides the cite. That’s the way these things work. His weaseling based on how **pkbites** phrased a response and the ambiguity of his own posts don’t relieve him of the responsibility to back up his own claims. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075/112 "2008-10-10T12:34:05Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > PRR said: > > His statements are ambiguous. He didn’t indicate whether he meant in the US or worldwide. Since it is apparently illegal in some places outside the US, it should have been simple for him to provide a cite for at least one of those places. He has, to date, failed to do that. He made the claim, he provides the cite. That’s the way these things work. His weaseling based on how **pkbites** phrased a response and the ambiguity of his own posts don’t relieve him of the responsibility to back up his own claims. Please stop repeating yourself. We heard you the first few times. I stand by my statement: **Pkbites** ’s post is my cite. If he wants to retract or rephrase his claim that spanking is legal in most places, I’ll retract my statement that it is illegal in some. ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075/113 "2008-10-10T12:52:02Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Please stop repeating yourself. We heard you the first few times. I stand by my statement: **Pkbites** ’s post is my cite. If he wants to retract or rephrase his > claim that spanking is legal in most places, I’ll retract my statement that it is illegal in some. Scroll back up to post 108. I think you’ll find there’s no need. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075/114 "2008-10-10T14:41:39Z")
Nice try, **prr**. Brillant debate strategy, in fact. But it won’t work this time. You clearly suggested first that spanking was illegal, before \*\*pkbites \*\*mentioned it. In fact, his (her?) post was a response to _your post about what would happen to you in court_ if you hit a kid: > [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > If you find yourself hitting your kid, for any reason, turn yourself in at the nearest police station at the very moment you come to your senses, and throw yourself before the mercy of the court. If you have an extenuating circumstance (“This is the first tme I ever hit my kid, Your Honor, and I’m deeply ashamed and will promise never to do it again”) you’ll probably get off with a slap, and it’s a slap far less severe than you meted out in your court of justice. To which \*\*pkbites \*\*very realistically and sensibly replied, giving you the benefit of the doubt that you might actually know what you’re talking about in some obscure US backwater she’s never heard of, or that you might be talking about a legal system other than the one she’s familiar with: > [@pkbites](#): > > Spanking, in most places in the U.S., is not illegal. Obviously, warning us of the legal consequences of an act that’s not illegal for many of us, requires some correction. The fact that \*\*pkbites \*\*is aware enough to realize she doesn’t know every statute in every state means she’s being an honest and careful debater, not making any claims she can’t back up. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075/115 "2008-10-10T15:37:23Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Please stop repeating yourself. We heard you the first few times. I stand by my statement: **Pkbites** ’s post is my cite. If he wants to retract or rephrase his > claim that spanking is legal in most places, I’ll retract my statement that it is illegal in some. Slimy, **prr**. Very slimy. Debate honestly, please. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075/116 "2008-10-10T16:07:05Z")
**TWEEEEET!** OK, **pseudotriton ruber ruber** and everyone fighting with him: knock it off! This is supposed to be **Great Debates** not “argue uselessly about other posters’ styles of posting.” It seems to me that everyone knows (as much as they want) about the legality of spanking in various jurisdictions. Squabbling over who made the more correct post or who was the first poster to submit an error does nothing to further the discussion in the OP. Knock it off and move on to a separate point (or a new theread or the Pit or wherever). [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075/117 "2008-10-10T16:09:17Z")
* * * > [@WhyNot](#): > > Nice try, **prr**. Brillant debate strategy, in fact. But it won’t work this time. You clearly suggested first that spanking was illegal, before \*\*pkbites \*\*mentioned it. In fact, his (her?) post was a response to _your post about what would happen to you in court_ if you hit a kid: > > To which \*\*pkbites \*\*very realistically and sensibly replied, giving you the benefit of the doubt that you might actually know what you’re talking about in some obscure US backwater she’s never heard of, or that you might be talking about a legal system other than the one she’s familiar with: > > Obviously, warning us of the legal consequences of an act that’s not illegal for many of us, requires some correction. The fact that \*\*pkbites \*\*is aware enough to realize she doesn’t know every statute in every state means she’s being an honest and careful debater, not making any claims she can’t back up. I promise you if you go into your local police station and say “Officer, I have beaten my child up, and am concerned that I may have violated some law or other,” what I said would happen will happen. There’s a very good chance that the cop will tell you “G’wan get outta here, everybody beats their kids to a pulp every day, you ain’t done nuttin.’ In fact, I’m proud of ya.” But maybe he’ll have you arrested on a charge of, I don’t know, “domestic violence” maybe? Maybe. Then you’ll go before a judge, who may throw the case out of court, on the same basis. “No harm here. Whaddaya, nuts? I beat my kids up just for practice. You done good.” But maybe you’ll have to stand trial on the domestic violence rap. You’ll probably get off, because a jury of your 12 child-beatin’ peers would never ever convict you for beating your own flesh and blood, and once you explained that the kid lived, and any broken bones or missing organs that resulted have long since healed over, they’ll probably throw you a party. But if this results in your doing serious time, I want you to buy me a beer as you go off to prison, okay? Now, I’m painting a ludicrous picture here, I know, but this one is less ludicrous: try beating your kid in public sometime, the same way you do it behind closed doors. If it’s completely legal, there’s no reason to do it in private, right? You’re not ashamed that you raise your hand to your weak defenseless child, are you? Of course not. You’re proud of it. It means that you’re a responsible parent and a good American. Now, if you commit this act in public, where all your neighbors can see, none of them will report you to the police, would they? Of course not. But say just one of these liberal bleeding heart Children’s Advocate creeps does report you for some stupid non-existent crime? You’ll beat it, because as I stated above, no cop or judge or jury would ever, ever, ever agree with them, correct? No one has ever gone to prison for beating a child in the history of this country. I think it’s protected by the Constitution, in fact: doesn’t Article Eleventy say “None of the above-named rights shall apply to any child up to the age of 21, and such minor persons may be beaten physically to within an inch of their lives if one or both parents is in a pissy mood.” ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075/118 "2008-10-10T16:31:06Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > * * * > > I promise you if you go into your local police station and say “Officer, I have beaten my child up, and am concerned that I may have violated some law or other,” what I said would happen will happen. There’s a very good chance that the cop will tell you “G’wan get outta here, everybody beats their kids to a pulp every day, you ain’t done nuttin.’ In fact, I’m proud of ya.” > > But maybe he’ll have you arrested on a charge of, I don’t know, “domestic violence” maybe? Maybe. Then you’ll go before a judge, who may throw the case out of court, on the same basis. “No harm here. Whaddaya, nuts? I beat my kids up just for practice. You done good.” > > But maybe you’ll have to stand trial on the domestic violence rap. You’ll probably get off, because a jury of your 12 child-beatin’ peers would never ever convict you for beating your own flesh and blood, and once you explained that the kid lived, and any broken bones or missing organs that resulted have long since healed over, they’ll probably throw you a party. > > But if this results in your doing serious time, I want you to buy me a beer as you go off to prison, okay? > > Now, I’m painting a ludicrous picture here, I know, but this one is less ludicrous: try beating your kid in public sometime, the same way you do it behind closed doors. If it’s completely legal, there’s no reason to do it in private, right? You’re not ashamed that you raise your hand to your weak defenseless child, are you? Of course not. You’re proud of it. It means that you’re a responsible parent and a good American. > > Now, if you commit this act in public, where all your neighbors can see, none of them will report you to the police, would they? Of course not. But say just one of these liberal bleeding heart Children’s Advocate creeps does report you for some stupid non-existent crime? You’ll beat it, because as I stated above, no cop or judge or jury would ever, ever, ever agree with them, correct? No one has ever gone to prison for beating a child in the history of this country. I think it’s protected by the Constitution, in fact: doesn’t Article Eleventy say “None of the above-named rights shall apply to any child up to the age of 21, and such minor persons may be beaten physically to within an inch of their lives if one or both parents is in a pissy mood.” Once again, you’re equating a swat on the rump with “beating”. In your own mind you can equate apples with oranges, good with evil, or lead with gold. That doesn’t make it reality. I’ve dealt with kids who were actually beaten. It involved multiple hits, punches, gouges, lashes with belts/cords/whips, and strikes with hard object, resulting in bleeding, bruising, and broken bones. Your values equate that brutality with one or two swats on the butt with an open hand. The law and the majority of our society doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075/119 "2008-10-11T00:16:19Z")
I have spanked my youngest children before, both boys, but not often, and only in cases of extreme disobedience or when they had put themselves in physical danger. They are 3 and 6 now, and we have already started moving away from doing that to removal of toys, privledges, using timeouts, etc. Once they reach a certain age it’s no longer useful, therefore unnacceptable. I have a teenaged daughter as well, and there’s no way a teenager needs spankings. Taking away their most precious possessions/activities is SO much more effective. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075/120 "2008-10-11T00:36:30Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Still, I was shocked to hear myself very calmly and quietly inform my daughter (3.5) yesterday that if she chose to soil her underwear again, she was going to be spanked. I’ve always been completely anti-spanking around toilet training, but I am just out of ideas with this one. And you know what? Just the conversation itself seems to have worked. For a day, anyhow. I didn’t spank her (in fact, I stayed up most of the night thinking, “oh my god, how could I have said that to her?”) but today, for the first time in over a week, not a single “accident”. I’m not even sure she understands what “spank” means, but she seems to have grokked that it’s something Big, and Mama really doesn’t want it to happen. > > Generally speaking, I think that teaching a coping technique that the kid can’t legally use himself as an adult (that is, hit someone when they do something he doesn’t like) isn’t terribly useful. I’d rather teach than punish. And I think that, for me anyhow, it’s best left as the nuclear option - the Really Bad Thing that happens once or twice in a whole childhood, not a weekly or daily occurrence. I mean, once you’ve exhausted physical domination, what can top that? God. Instilling the fear of harm (whether physical or just something really “bad” happening) to control other people’s bodily functions is what a lot of people object to about religion. Creating an entity that is “Big” and apparently loving that controls one’s actions can be some people’s description of God. How is your technique psychologically different? > [@WhyNot](#): > > Oh! I remember one of the infractions: for some odd reason, I lied to my mother and told her that Jane had been over and took Daddy and I to see that movie that I wanted to see while Mommy was at a class. Unbeknownst to me but knownst to Mommy, Daddy had been having an affair with Jane. :smack: Mommy went OFF on Daddy, and then when they figured out I was lying, I got a spanking. > > Only fight my parents had in 14 years of marriage, followed by a spanking (and a divorce a few months later). In retrospect, hearing them fight had me far more upset than the spanking. That’s a pretty good example of where spanking shouldn’t be allowed, given a lot of the other responses in this thread. For example, some people noted that spanking shouldn’t be done in anger, but in that example, not only was it done in anger, it was also an emotionally loaded topic where it’s difficult to untangle the parent’s emotions from the child’s wrongdoing. Did you really learn that it’s always wrong to lie, even to protect someone that you love? Is that always the right lesson? Did your mom spank you for saying that you didn’t take a cookie from the cookie jar when you did? That’s a far more egregious offense since you’re only protecting yourself and not anyone else. **WhyNot** , I’m not meaning to pick on you here. Your responses are just the ones that caught my eye. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corporal-punishment-yay-or-nay/467075.md?page=7)