# "Correct" pronounciations that people have given up on **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 11, 2015, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246 "2015-10-11T07:34:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![northporlarbear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7bcc69/32.png) [@northporlarbear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/northporlarbear)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246/181 "2015-10-17T17:45:17Z")
I have a jaw problem. My jaw doesn’t really open well. When I open my jaw, it moves rather well to the right side but not so well to the left side. Also, my tongue gets lazy sometimes if I don’t focus. So, sometimes, I pronounce wrong even when I know the correct sounds (or I am just misheard because the sounds really don’t clear out with my closed jaws). Sometimes, I know the wrong sounds (like I used to pronounce iron as i-ron rather than ir-on). They are all understandable though, especially when keeping in mind that I am ESL. However, it would help to be fixed right so that I get into the habit of sounding out correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246/182 "2015-10-17T17:45:21Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > NYC’s SoHo region got its name for being South of HOW-ston Street. So how come it’s not pronounced SOW-HOW? > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Perhaps in imitation of the London Soho? It’s almost certainly this. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246/183 "2015-10-17T20:48:56Z")
> [@northporlarbear](#): > > Sometimes, I know the wrong sounds (like I used to pronounce iron as i-ron rather than ir-on). I’d bet that not many native-English speakers pronounce the first r at all. From my computer dictionary: iron |ˈīərn| So it rhymes with “I earn.” Steel is made of i-ern; I have an antique flati-ern; The Flat I-ern Building is in New York City. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246/184 "2015-10-17T21:11:23Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > I’d bet that not many native-English speakers pronounce the first r at all. Dunno how “first” got in there. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246/185 "2015-10-17T23:49:46Z")
Not reading through 4 pages to check if anyone already said it. Forte, as in that’s not my forte. Pronounced “fort” not “fortay” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246/186 "2015-10-18T00:37:36Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > That is the correct pronunciation. I’m not sure where the idea comes from that words borrowed from another language have to retain the other language’s pronunciation. It was borrowed from Finnish but we do not speak Finnish. Yup. I just finished reading [The Sense of Style](http://www.amazon.com/The-Sense-Style-Thinking-Persons/dp/0670025852), linguist Steven Pinker’s version of a style manual. One of my favorite terms from it is the “etymological fallacy,” exactly the concept you’re talking about here. Knowing a word’s ancestry is interesting for word nerds, definitely, but it has no more authority over a word’s current pronunciation and meaning than my great-grandfather has over my career choices. It’s a fascinating book, adroitly threading the Scylla-and-Charybdis passage between prescriptivism and descriptivism. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246/187 "2015-10-18T03:29:46Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > Not reading through 4 pages to check if anyone already said it. > > Forte, as in that’s not my forte. > > Pronounced “fort” not “fortay” If you had only read to the 7th comment, you would have seen it :). ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246/188 "2015-10-18T03:38:43Z")
I’ve told this one before. As a youth I worked at Kmart. This guy comes in and asks where he can find the ‘all’. I asked, ‘All? You mean laundry detergent? It’s on aisle…’ ‘No,’ he said, ‘_All_. For the _car!_’ I figured out he was talking about _oil_ and directed him to Automotive. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246/189 "2015-10-18T20:07:14Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Not quite the same thing, but close: > > The American aerospace company “Lockheed” was started by the Loughead brothers who were originally from Scotland. They eventually tired of everybody in the USA mispronouncing their and their company’s name as “Luff-head”. > > So they changed the spelling to match the correct pronunciation. Which correct pronunciation the public then rapidly adopted. Problem solved. It’s strange to think that, what with English being the way it is, this story could have gone the opposite way. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246/190 "2015-10-18T20:09:34Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > The German bakery manufacturer, Bimbo, is trying to convince Americans to pronounce their name “beem-bo.” > > It ain’t gonna work. Bimbo’s German? I had no idea. Whenever we see it in SoCal, it’s been imported from Mexico and has Spanish labeling. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246/191 "2015-10-18T21:52:07Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > If you had only read to the 7th comment, you would have seen it :). > [@TBG](#): > > Not reading through 4 pages to check if anyone already said it. Is the 7th comment part of those 4 pages? :p;):smack: ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246/192 "2015-10-19T03:00:28Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The F comes from standard British pronunciation, I expect, as in draught (draft) or rough (ruff). Maybe someone heard _Gogggghhhh_ and heard a bit of an F in there thought it meant the Dutch pronunciation was the same, and it stuck? Those words get the /f/ sound the same way. They were originally /x/ (Scottish lo **ch** ), but, as English lost that sound, they changed. What’s interesting is how different words wound up changing the gh differently. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246/193 "2015-10-21T04:37:19Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > If I hear Samhain pronounced “Sam-hain” one more time, I’m going to barf. Even genius Spencer Reid did this on an episode of Criminal minds. > > It’s “so-ween.” Me, too. This one was always on the top of my 3rd grade spelling list. :roll eyes: It’s enough to make me guzzle my expresso tomorrow morning. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246/194 "2015-10-21T11:02:46Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Bimbo’s German? I had no idea. > > Whenever we see it in SoCal, it’s been imported from Mexico and has Spanish labeling. This was also addressed a couple pages ago. Bimbo is indeed a Mexican company. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246/195 "2015-10-21T11:26:59Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > Not reading through 4 pages to check if anyone already said it. > > Forte, as in that’s not my forte. > > Pronounced “fort” not “fortay” And you are incorrect. That ship has sailed long ago. We are not speaking French. Most dictionaries list “fortay” as the preferred pronunciation. And it makes sense. The word looks like it should be pronounced “fortay.” There is already a completely unrelated word pronounced “fort.” If you say “That is my ‘fort’” people will think you are talking about that structure you built with the couch cushions in the living room. This is one of the few times where the (American) English language developed logically. Don’t fight it. And if you do pronounce it with the now alternate “correct” pronunciation people will either not know what you are talking about or think you are being pretentious. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246/196 "2015-10-21T11:43:36Z")
[QUOTE=TBG] Not reading through 4 pages to check if anyone already said it. Forte, as in that’s not my forte. Pronounced “fort” not “fortay” [/QUOTE] > [@Loach](#): > > And you are incorrect. That ship has sailed long ago. We are not speaking French. Most dictionaries list “fortay” as the preferred pronunciation. And it makes sense. The word looks like it should be pronounced “fortay.” There is already a completely unrelated word pronounced “fort.” If you say “That is my ‘fort’” people will think you are talking about that structure you built with the couch cushions in the living room. This is one of the few times where the (American) English language developed logically. Don’t fight it. And if you do pronounce it with the now alternate “correct” pronunciation people will either not know what you are talking about or think you are being pretentious. Isn’t that the point to this thread? Regardless of how the word was pronounced at the beginning, it has changed? I mentioned Fort vs. Fortay early in this thread. I get it - Fortay is the way to go and that is what I use, again, per the OP. I tend not to use it much anyway - claiming something as my Forte feels braggy in the best of situations. But when I do hear it being used, I still think “so, that is your Loud?” simply because I am an idiot. I _never_ communicate that, however - for all of the reasons you state. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246/197 "2015-10-21T12:15:41Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Isn’t that the point to this thread? Regardless of how the word was pronounced at the beginning, it has changed? > > I mentioned Fort vs. Fortay early in this thread. I get it - Fortay is the way to go and that is what I use, again, per the OP. > > I tend not to use it much anyway - claiming something as my Forte feels braggy in the best of situations. But when I do hear it being used, I still think “so, that is your Loud?” simply because I am an idiot. I _never_ communicate that, however - for all of the reasons you state. My point is that with forte the change happened so long ago it’s beyond the point of “giving up” it is the proper way to pronounce it (Although “fort” remains a valid dictionary pronunciation). It’s not like we say we have given up on pronouncing English like Chaucer. I would like to note for my own sake that the word “pronunciation” is one that I misspell every single time. My brain just doesn’t seem to like the word. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246/198 "2015-10-21T12:31:35Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > My point is that with forte the change happened so long ago it’s beyond the point of “giving up” it is the proper way to pronounce it (Although “fort” remains a valid dictionary pronunciation). It’s not like we say we have given up on pronouncing English like Chaucer. Yep, I get it. But as you say it is valid in the dictionary, and, in some ways, Fort vs. Fortay seems to be a bit of shibboleth for some word-geeks. I know a bunch who grind their teeth and say “Fortay” almost sounding like Jerry Seinfeld saying “Newman!” > [@](#): > > I would like to note for my own sake that the word “pronunciation” is one that I misspell every single time. My brain just doesn’t seem to like the word. A-ha! Pro-nun trouble! ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246/199 "2015-10-21T12:35:41Z")
Re the Van Gogh question: a bit of verse which I’ve always liked – I’ll never with certainty know – Van Gogh: is it Goff, Gokh, or Go? This grief o’er the name (I admit it with shame) Makes my highbrows feel awfully low. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246/200 "2015-10-22T02:00:35Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Cash- it’s a hidden trove of something. French-origin loanwords are always traps for the unwary, but _cache_ is particularly prone to this. Even those who have studied French might mistakenly think of the word as _caché_, past tense of the verb _cacher_, and therefore possibly the thing which is hidden. Hence the mispronunciation “cashay”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-pronounciations-that-people-have-given-up-on/734246.md?page=11)