# Correct usage of the ; sign? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 27, 2003, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-usage-of-the-sign/215526 "2003-11-27T04:29:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![chattywine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5daacb/32.png) [@chattywine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chattywine)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-usage-of-the-sign/215526/21 "2003-11-27T22:16:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by robcaro \* > \*\*The dog was gaining; John ran faster. > The telephone rang; Mrs. Donaldson let it ring. > Steven turned the knob; Water flowed out of the pipe. > Stay away from snakes; They are poisonous. > \*\* (Referring to the above examples) If one used a comma in place of the semicolon would it be incorrect punctuationwise? It seems to me the meaning does not change with the comma usage. And, I see the first word following the semicolons are capitalized, for the proper nouns it’s logical but the ‘water’ and the ‘they’ is just a matter of style at this point? ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-usage-of-the-sign/215526/22 "2003-11-27T22:41:53Z")
BTW AFAIK it’s correct to _not_ capitalise the word after a comma or semicolon (though it sometimes seems to me more natural to). I think some authorities however do recommend that you do. In those examples it would be wrong to use a comma. It’s hard to explain why, but basically you can’t just join two sentances with a comma. Check out [this page on comma splices](http://www.ucfv.bc.ca/writing_centre/res9.htm) ---
**Author:** ![raygirvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac91a4/32.png) [@raygirvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raygirvan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-usage-of-the-sign/215526/23 "2003-11-28T02:26:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Steven turned the knob; Water flowed out of the pipe. > Stay away from snakes; They are poisonous. As Shade says, wrong, wrong, wrong! You never, ever, capitalize the first letter of the word after a semicolon, unless it happens to be proper noun (i.e. a name). ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-usage-of-the-sign/215526/24 "2003-11-28T08:48:10Z")
…unless it’s the start of a quotation: He ran into the fields; “Smell the flowers,” he shouted. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-usage-of-the-sign/215526/25 "2003-11-28T10:50:10Z")
Just to be clear, you don’t capitalize a word _because_ it’s after a colon or semicolon. Obviously if the word is normally capitalized, it should be (afaik there’s no situation where you uncapitalize a word). There’s now no need for people to make 3 posts saying “Ah, but you should also capitalize month names after a semicolon.” However, I do remember being surprised to read that some house styles specificy that you _do_ capitalize, but I’m unable now to find any cites. Does anyone know? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-usage-of-the-sign/215526/26 "2003-11-28T12:39:57Z")
Rephrase that “never capitalize” rule to read: The only occasions in which you should follow a semicolon with a capitalized word are those in which capitalization is called for or permitted by another rule of syntactical style. On the other hand, a clause constituting a complete sentence following a colon takes a discretionary capital – use one or not as your personal taste or your stylebook dictates. While we’re doing punctuation stylistics, does anyone have a good definition of when a dash is called for in good prose style? ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-usage-of-the-sign/215526/27 "2003-11-28T12:47:02Z")
During the 52-minute surgery, 18 inches of Elmo’s : were removed. Elmo is getting accustomed to having a ; . ---
**Author:** ![raygirvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac91a4/32.png) [@raygirvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raygirvan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-usage-of-the-sign/215526/28 "2003-11-28T15:56:38Z")
_On the other hand, a clause constituting a complete sentence following a colon takes a discretionary capital – use one or not as your personal taste or your stylebook dictates._ This seems to be a new thing; I recently saw a question about it in [The Grammar Logs](http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/grammarlogs4/grammarlogs579.htm). Although a number of sources are repeating this advice about it being discretionary in that circumstance, in UK English writing - I’m a technical journalist - I think it’s still plain wrong. Even in US English, would anyone here seriously argue that “We ate dinner: It was very nice” is correct? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-usage-of-the-sign/215526/29 "2003-11-28T16:19:29Z")
**raygirvan,** I cannot see a good reason to use the colon in your example, “We ate dinner: It was very nice.” I would use a semicolon or make two sentences. The [Gregg Reference Manual](http://search.barnesandnoble.com/textbooks/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?userid=36TEB6VJ77&isbn=0028040481) (not online, I don’t think, so I am quoting from the printed Ninth edition) says > [@](#): > > Use a colon between two independent clauses when the second clause explains or illustrates the first clause and there is no coordinating conjunction or transitionial expression linking the two clauses…if you aren’t sure…treat each clause as a separate sentence… The Gregg manual also says RE Capitalizing after a Colon: > [@](#): > > Do not capitalize after a colon if the material that follows cannot stand alone as a sentence… > > Do not capitalize the first word of an independent clause after a colon if the clause explains, illustrates, or amplifies the thought… > > Capitalize the first word of an independent clause after a colon only if it requires special emphasis or is presented as a formal rule… There are some special cases & exceptions, however. I strongly recommend this reference work; it is a bible for me, very well indexed, cross-referenced and has copious examples. It even has a section comparing the use of the colon and semicolon. What more could you want? 🙂 [Gregg Manual, list of topics covered](http://www.glencoe.com/ps/buscomm/grm/topics/) (table of contents) ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-usage-of-the-sign/215526/30 "2003-11-28T22:26:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chattywine \* > \*\*If one used a comma in place of the semicolon would it be incorrect punctuationwise? It seems to me the meaning does not change with the comma usage. And, I see the first word following the semicolons are capitalized, for the proper nouns it’s logical but the ‘water’ and the ‘they’ is just a matter of style at this point? \*\* The use of a comma in place of a semicolon does change the meaning of the joined sentences; it leaves out the conjunction that a semicolon implies. A semicolon implies (but does not explicitly define) causality or some other relationship between the two ideas expressed, whereas a comma cannot carry that load without an additional word. The above sentences explain (and demonstrate) my meaning. See how I needed to use “whereas” with the comma to really make the second sentence work? The first sentence uses the semicolon. Other acceptable punctuation would have been “…sentences: it leaves…” “…sentences, because it leaves…” “…sentences–it leaves…” Although apparently there’s a difference between use of an Em dash–the kind I’m using right here–and a semicolon: I think some people feel Em dashes should only be used in pairs. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-usage-of-the-sign/215526/31 "2003-11-28T23:46:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jurph \* > **The use of a comma in place of a semicolon does change the meaning of the joined sentences; it leaves out the conjunction that a semicolon implies. A semicolon implies (but does not explicitly define) causality or some other relationship between the two ideas expressed, whereas a comma cannot carry that load without an additional word.** (Just to make this clear, in the sentances discussed, leaving out the semicolon would be wrong. However if someone did use a comma instead, the same meaning would probably be the one people would assume was meant.) OK, I’ve thought of a fun game. Other than by using lists, can you think of examples where using a comma instead of a semicolon leaves the sentance grammatically correct, but changed in meaning? eg. “He thought; many people were surprised.” Is there one without relying on thought or said? ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-usage-of-the-sign/215526/32 "2003-11-29T19:05:52Z")
\Stay away from snakes; They are poisonous.\ Shade, back to this (oddly capitalized) example. This one is the only one in the list that I think could go either way - comma or semicolon. (In fact, I prefer a comma.) The choice doesn’t significantly change the meaning of the sentence, but I think it colors it in a slightly different way. “Stay away from snakes, they are poisonous” implies a stronger causative relationship: “Stay away from snakes as they are poisonous.” “Stay away from snakes; they are poisonous” presents them as two slightly more separate thoughts. Certainly the fact that they are poisonous is the reason you should stay away from them, but my reading of this sentence is more along the lines of “Stay away from snakes. After all, they’re poisonous.” The second part confirms the first one, but it is not quite as explicitly the reason for the command. Other than subtle differences like this, and besides rather unlikely verbal trickery as in your example (the sort of situation I don’t think most people run into when writing), I don’t think there are many situations in which a choice is permitted and it significantly changes the sentence’s meaning. The play “Wit” (made into a wonderful movie starring Emma Thompson) has a protagonist who is a scholar of John Donne’s holy sonnets; there is a wonderful flashback of her school days in which a professor lambasts her use of a non-authoritative manuscript: > [@](#): > > In the edition you chose, this profoundly simple meaning is sacrificed to hysterical punctuation: > And Death–capital D–shall be no more—semicolon! > Death—capital D—comma—thou shalt die— exclamation point! > > If you go for this sort of thing I suggest you take up Shakespeare. > > Gardner’s edition of the Holy Sonnets returns to the Westmoreland manuscript source of 1610, not for sentimental reasons, I assure you, but because Helen Gardner is a scholar. It reads: > And death shall be no more, comma, > Death thou shalt die. > > Nothing but a breath, a comma, separates life from everlasting life. It is simple really. With the original punctuation restored, death is no longer something to act out on a stage, with exclamation points. It’s a comma, a pause. So if you’re studying literature, I suppose these subtle differences count. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-usage-of-the-sign/215526/33 "2003-11-30T02:01:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Excalibre \* > \*\*\Stay away from snakes; They are poisonous.\ > > Shade, back to this (oddly capitalized) example. This one is the only one in the list that I think could go either way - comma or semicolon. (In fact, I prefer a comma.) The choice doesn’t significantly change the meaning of the sentence, but I think it colors it in a slightly different way. “Stay away from snakes, they are poisonous” implies a stronger causative relationship: “Stay away from snakes as they are poisonous.” > > “Stay away from snakes; they are poisonous” presents them as two slightly more separate thoughts. Certainly the fact that they are poisonous is the reason you should stay away from them, but my reading of this sentence is more along the lines of “Stay away from snakes. After all, they’re poisonous.” The second part confirms the first one, but it is not quite as explicitly the reason for the command. _Is_ “Stay away from snakes, they’re poisonous” correct? It looks like a run-pn sentance to me. I agree that however you punctuate it it looks like being poisonous is why you stay away. But if i wanted to emphasise that I think I’d use a colon. > [@](#): > > Other than subtle differences like this, and besides rather unlikely verbal trickery as in your example (the sort of situation I don’t think most people run into when writing), I don’t think there are many situations in which a choice is permitted and it significantly changes the sentence’s meaning.\*\* I don’t think verbal trickery is that unlikely - it’s happened several times that I’ve been typing something on IM and the meaning is entirely different to what I intended with the same words, and I don’t know that changing a punctuation mark is so different. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-usage-of-the-sign/215526/34 "2003-11-30T07:50:02Z")
Stay away from snakes; they are poisonous. Stay away from snakes, they are poisonous. Stay away from snakes. They are poisonous. I don’t read the second as a run-on. Certainly it works as two separate sentences, but it ends up oddly stilted. A comma splice happens when you have two separate sentences but in this case, I think you can read them as two clauses, both having the same topic and being acceptable as a sentence. I don’t know enough style rules to say for sure that I’m right; I’m a little over my head at this point. Basically, I punctuate without much thought and I haven’t learned all the individual rules - so it’s quite possible some style guides would disagree with me. Nevertheless, I think that the spoken sentence has a rhythm that is best captured by a comma (try reading it different ways; when I read it out loud, each version has a different sound), and I’ve always gotten away with doing what feels right. > [@](#): > > I don’t think verbal trickery is that unlikely - it’s happened several times that I’ve been typing something on IM and the meaning is entirely different to what I intended with the same words, and I don’t know that changing a punctuation mark is so different. I’m not denying the importance of punctuation in writing, don’t get me wrong. There’s always the classical example (probably apocryphal) of the importance of the serial comma. Supposedly, a new author dedicated his first book “to my parents, Ayn Rand and God” which makes for a rather bizarre image. But as for the particular issue of comma versus semicolon? I’m willing to bet that it’s at least extremely unusual in normal writing for it to make a significant difference in the meaning of a word. Their usages are close enough together that the vast majority of the time, the greatest risk is looking slightly stupid. But there are no doubt many exceptions to this. ---
**Author:** ![AmicaFidelis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2bfe46/32.png) [@AmicaFidelis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmicaFidelis)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-usage-of-the-sign/215526/35 "2003-11-30T08:30:34Z")
**Stay away from snakes, they are poisonous.** This is technically a comma splice, yes, but it seems perfectly acceptable to me in all but the most formal of writing contexts just because the clauses are both so short. I keep noticing contemporary literary novelists using this sort of of comma splice - and not just the folks who have jettisoned most other conventions. Jurph said some people think em dashes should be used in pairs. Does anyone have any idea why? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-usage-of-the-sign/215526/36 "2003-11-30T15:54:59Z")
In the herpetelogical warning above, my preference would be to use a **dash** over the three options given. It’s clearly an informal, colloquial way to say it. The comma rams two independent clauses together without any lubricating conjunction, and creates a clear comma splice. Using a period and making the two clauses independent sentences ignores the clear linkage between them, reducing the utterance to a “See Spot run” sort of short-sentences-for-first-graders sort of writing. (_Say_ the seven words as a normal spoken utterance, and you will not put in the multibeat pause of a normal end-of-sentence juncture that would be represented in writing by a period.) The semicolon is syntactically correct, but elevates the style to a more formal one than the wording suggests. The dash joins two related thoughts without requiring a grammatical linkage to support the topical linkage, and is the standard punctuation for the sort of informal transition between related brief thoughts that occurs in conversational English: “Uncle Henry moved out here back when your grandmother – Turn left at that barn!” Formal English would require joining the two clauses by placing a comma betwen them and changing “they” to “which” (and, of course, it would then be scientifically inaccurate, as non-poisonous snakes are in the majority.) Contextually, the implication of the colloquial sentence is that the local snakes tend to be poisonous, and therefore their avoidance is indicated – a “flavor” that does not carry over into the formal structure. ---
**Author:** ![magog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/fbc32d/32.png) [@magog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magog)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-usage-of-the-sign/215526/37 "2003-11-30T17:24:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AmicaFidelis \* > Jurph said some people think em dashes should be used in pairs. Does anyone have any idea why? I believe dashes can also be used in place of parentheses when it’s not exactly a paranthetical clause. Hense the pairs thing. Example: I went to the store – that is, the occult grocery mart – to get the frog brains. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-usage-of-the-sign/215526/38 "2003-11-30T17:57:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*Formal English would require joining the two clauses by placing a comma betwen them and changing “they” to “which” (and, of course, it would then be scientifically inaccurate, as non-poisonous snakes are in the majority.) Contextually, the implication of the colloquial sentence is that the local snakes tend to be poisonous, and therefore their avoidance is indicated – a “flavor” that does not carry over into the formal structure. \*\* Yeah, I think I agree. Do you use a capital after a dash? You did in your example, but is that correct or just a typo? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-usage-of-the-sign/215526/39 "2003-12-01T00:03:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shade \* > \*\*Yeah, I think I agree. Do you use a capital after a dash? You did in your example, but is that correct or just a typo? \*\* I treat it much as I do the colon: initial capital for a complete-sentence thought, lowercase for a phrase. (Or, rephrasing my response, “I treat it much as I do the colon: Use a capital to introduce a thought written as if a complete sentence, and use lowercase to introduce a phrase.”) ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-usage-of-the-sign/215526/40 "2003-12-01T01:49:48Z")
Thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/correct-usage-of-the-sign/215526.md?page=1)