# Corrupt Juvie Court Judges **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 12, 2009, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499 "2009-02-12T06:11:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/61 "2009-02-15T01:09:58Z")
> [@](#): > > So we can look to the government run prisons, then, and find that they are a model of rectitude and prudence, right? You seem determined to keep missing the point. So let me ask you; would this have happened if it had been a government run prison? No, because the administration of a government run prison has no incentive to increase the amount of people in their prison. The warden gets paid the exact same amount regardless of whether his prison is 90% vacant or overfilled beyond its capacity. He has no profit incentive to increase his prison population so he’s not going to bribe any judges to sentence people to his prison. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/62 "2009-02-15T01:43:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You seem determined to keep missing the point. So let me ask you; would this have happened if it had been a government run prison? No, because the administration of a government run prison has no incentive to increase the amount of people in their prison. The warden gets paid the exact same amount regardless of whether his prison is 90% vacant or overfilled beyond its capacity. He has no profit incentive to increase his prison population so he’s not going to bribe any judges to sentence people to his prison. I think I have amply demonstrated that corruption may still happen - it just might take a different form. But hey, you have your hammer. Keep looking for nails. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/63 "2009-02-15T04:19:57Z")
Other types of corruption are individualistic. This type of corruption is systemic and will only occur in this type of system. And I think I’ve already nailed it. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/64 "2009-02-15T05:42:45Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I smell some big-ass civil cases coming. It will be interesting to see if any limit is found on [judicial immunity](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=449&invol=24). ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/65 "2009-02-15T05:51:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, because the administration of a government run prison has no incentive to increase the amount of people in their prison. The warden gets paid the exact same amount regardless of whether his prison is 90% vacant or overfilled beyond its capacity. He has no profit incentive to increase his prison population so he’s not going to bribe any judges to sentence people to his prison. Couldn’t he profit the old fashioned way, by skimping on consumables like food and pocketing the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/66 "2009-02-16T00:21:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Couldn’t he profit the old fashioned way, by skimping on consumables like food and pocketing the difference? It would be pretty difficult. Pretty much all purchasing is handled by contracted bids so everything is public record. You can’t simply not buy something and pocket the money - if you don’t buy it, there’s no money to steal. The only way to line your own pocket at government expense is to buy things openly and then resell them out the back door and hope you can fudge the inventory controls. ---
**Author:** ![Azeotrope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/0ea827/32.png) [@Azeotrope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azeotrope)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/67 "2009-02-16T01:42:09Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > So we can keep trying to blame this on libertarianism, or we can go the simpler route and blame a political culture in Pennsylvania particularly conducive to corruption. Fellow posters from there or familiar with politics there will likely back me up here. I don’t work for Luzerne County, but I have to deal on a regular basis with several people at the courthouse and they’re all grumpy as hell and walking on eggshells. I don’t think the political climate here in NEPA is any more or less conducive to corruption than anywhere else. It’s a case of two corrupt men who were charismatic and smart enough to get themselves into a position of power, and thought they could do illegal things and never get in trouble for it. ---
**Author:** ![Azeotrope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/0ea827/32.png) [@Azeotrope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azeotrope)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/68 "2009-02-16T01:53:49Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Incidentally, just so you get a nice complete picture, Greg Skrepenak is a local hero - a football star who grew up in Wilkes-Barre and then played pro for the Raiders and the Carolina Panthers. He returned to Luzerne County after his pro career ended and got involved in politics. Actually, Skrep’s not really all that popular around here. He’s made some major blunders (like appointing a buddy of his to head up the the Luz. Co. Correctional Facility, who had exactly zilcho experience running a prison; hilarity ensues) and been a driving force behind the dreaded Luzerne County property reassessment. The reassessment was badly needed because many properties were still in the tax records at 1970s values, but it was handled badly by untrained workers and resulted in some owners getting taxed through the roof while taxes on similar properties in the same neighborhoods didn’t change. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/69 "2009-02-16T02:28:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It would be pretty difficult. Pretty much all purchasing is handled by contracted bids so everything is public record. You can’t simply not buy something and pocket the money… [Right.](http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/09/alabama.sheriff.jailed/) > [@](#): > > A federal judge ordered a north Alabama sheriff jailed this week, saying the lawman intentionally served jail inmates “woefully insufficient” meals in order to pocket more than $200,000. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/70 "2009-02-16T03:06:37Z")
> [@](#): > > A federal judge ordered a north Alabama sheriff jailed this week, saying the lawman intentionally served jail inmates “woefully insufficient” meals in order to pocket more than $200,000. I’ll admit I didn’t know that Alabama had a law that allowed its sheriffs to pocket any unspent money from their budgets. That’s a really dumb idea. Most states eliminated things like that under civil service laws passed during the progressive era back before WWI. Apparently Alabama didn’t get the word. But overall, I don’t think this disproves what I said. The problem at the Morgan County Jail was the same problem that existed at the PA Child Care facilities - the administrators had a profit incentive. I’ve never claimed that the government is a finished product. We need to pass a law and close the loophole that gave those sheriffs an incentive to pocket their budget. But it still shows the fundamental flaw with privatizing public services - it would take what’s a rare flaw and expand it into a universal feature. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/71 "2009-02-16T03:12:41Z")
They privatized a portion (the providing of meals) of the public system, and instead of opening it up to bits, simply gave it to the Sheriff. It is a long standing practice, going back to the days where a Sheriff’s wife would take care of meals for the few drunks in the local jail. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/72 "2009-02-16T03:18:34Z")
[Tom T. Hall]Well, they said,“Tomorrow morning you can see the judge then go.” They let me call one person on the phone. I thought I’d be there overnight so I just called my boss To tell him I’d be off but not for long. Well, they motioned me inside a cell with seven other guys. One little barred up window in the rear. My cellmates said if they had let me bring some money in We ought to send the jailer for some beer. Well, I had to pay him double 'cause he was the man in charge, And the jailer’s job was not the best in town. Later on his wife brought hot bologna, eggs and gravy. The first day I was there I turned it down. Well, next morning they just let us sleep but I was up real early, Wonderin’ when I’d get my release. Later on we got more hot bologna, eggs and gravy, And by now I wasn’t quite so hard to please.[/Tom T. Hall] ---
**Author:** ![HighSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c2a13f/32.png) [@HighSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HighSky)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/73 "2009-02-16T16:06:17Z")
And the regular Luzerne County Correctional hasn’t been known for its easy picking either. [From wikipedia.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Selenski) > [@](#): > > Selenski was the target of a nationwide manhunt and gained national media recognition when he escaped from the jail where he was awaiting trial the week he was charged with the murders, on Friday, October 9, 2003. He and another inmate used bedsheets to escape from the Luzerne County Correctional Facility in the county seat of Wilkes-Barre. Selenski’s partner in the jailbreak, Scott Bolton, was injured and hospitalized during the escape, but Selenski remained free. He turned himself in several days later. The next morning, the incident was the top story on all of the national morning news programs, including CNN’s American Morning, and on the network evening news. It made the headlines of major American newspapers. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/74 "2009-02-17T06:11:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Other types of corruption are individualistic. This type of corruption is systemic and will only occur in this type of system. But I think it’s also necessary recognize that “this type of system” was one where the state or county government had provided for no counsel, no appeals, and no restraints upon the power of the judges involved to structure the county’s detention policy. Had any of those checks and balances been in place, the opportunity for systemic corruption would likely have evaporated. So I’m not sure that one can really draw broader lessons from this scandal beyond simply that privately-run prisons are a bad idea within an authoritarian government structure. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/75 "2009-02-17T17:18:20Z")
Democracy Now is doing a story on it. It is about 5000 cases since 2002. They say that there are no charges against the jails that paid the judges. How can that be justified? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/76 "2009-02-18T02:23:17Z")
(Directed at Mr. Moto: ) > [@Polycarp](#): > > …out of a post responding to you and making several points I thought valid, and ending with a request, you selected one point to nitpick as your sole response to me… > > When I was younger, I used to think the Republican Party had some valid points to make that I could support. I’ve now seen adequate evidence of your moral bankruptcy to dissuade me from that view. In the 1970s and earlier the Republican Party was less monolithic. Not only were there moderate Republicans, there were actually characters known as _liberal_ Republicans. A sliver of this tradition survives at the state level, where simple espousal of ideology and a phony loyalty to the same just won’t cut it. National Republicans and their defenders are pretty stunted though. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/77 "2009-02-18T02:46:33Z")
Huh. Well, as nobody seems to be defending this mess, I don’t know what to make of party labels here. I could as easily ask, frankly, how this reflects on Democrats as they seem to be represented prominently in this scandal. Fair-minded sort that I am, though, and mindful of the equal opportunity nature of Pennsylvania corruption, I won’t do that. And yes, Pennsylvania is a bit more corrupt than the average state. I can easily cite proof of that. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/78 "2009-02-18T03:08:57Z")
> [@](#): > > In the 1970s and earlier the Republican Party was less monolithic. Not only were there moderate Republicans, there were actually characters known as liberal Republicans. A sliver of this tradition survives at the state level, where simple espousal of ideology and a phony loyalty to the same just won’t cut it. > > National Republicans and their defenders are pretty stunted though. I’m a liberal Republican. There are still a few of us around. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/79 "2009-02-18T03:19:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m a liberal Republican. There are still a few of us around. Not in Washington DC. I’m not trying to snark. There are a few Republicans in DC that are called moderate. None are called liberal. And at the state level, they are very rare and mostly retired. That said, IIRC surveys show that very roughly 10% of self-identified Republicans call themselves liberal. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/80 "2009-02-18T03:51:23Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m a liberal Republican. There are still a few of us around. Yep. One or two hanging around in my old stomping grounds in Jefferson and Lewis County, and I think a couple in Oneida County as well – at the county level. I’m not sure if there are any left in Albany. Sherry Boehlert finally retired, I heard, so that’s effectively the last liberal Republican in the House, unless there’s someone I’m missing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499.md?page=5)