# Corrupt Juvie Court Judges **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 12, 2009, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499 "2009-02-12T06:11:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/81 "2009-02-18T04:01:25Z")
I actually consider myself a moderate. But I realize that by contemporary Republican standards, I’m considered a liberal. Except in Texas. There I’m considered a communist. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/82 "2009-02-18T04:04:22Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m a liberal Republican. There are still a few of us around. And Narwhals are real unicorns. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/83 "2009-02-18T05:00:54Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The only way to line your own pocket at government expense is to buy things openly and then resell them out the back door and hope you can fudge the inventory controls. Or you can conspire with a supplier who either provides a kickback for your decision to procure his overpriced goods, or just an invoice for no goods at all. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/84 "2009-02-18T05:51:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Or you can conspire with a supplier who either provides a kickback for your decision to procure his overpriced goods, or just an invoice for no goods at all. That’s a lot more difficult. As I said, the process is public record so it’s difficult to hide the effect of a kickback. For example, let’s say I’m looking to buy 10,000 lbs of rice for a prison. The honest rice company offers to sell it to me for $20,000. The dishonest rice company suggests I buy his rice for $30,000 and we’ll each pocket $5000. But the next time there’s an audit, I have to explain why I paid a higher price. The dishonest rice seller could conceivably make a $20,000 bid and then offer me a $5000 bribe to accept it. But if he can do that, he’d be smarter just to lower his price and win the contract honestly without any bribe. You can get around this. You just have to arrange a bid so that the terms are so narrow that only one bidder can possibly win the contract. A company will offer the kickback and somebody will write up a contract for some incredibly specialized piece of equipment that’s only produced by the company. Obviously they’re the only one that can submit a bid so they can get away with padding their cost up high enough to cover the kickback. But single-bid contracts like that are a red flag for potential scams so they’re examined very closely. The only way to do this successfully is take the extra step and make it legal - don’t bribe a bureaucrat when you can make a campaign donation to a legislator instead. He’ll write a law to make what you’re doing legal. The “no delivery” scam is even more difficult because there’s a seperation between the purchaser and the receiver. Somebody in an office collects the bids and awards the contract to the lowest bidder. But the rice gets delivered to a prison somewhere else in the state. If the seller and the buyer cook up an agreement to scam the state, there’s still going to be the warden at the prison who’ll see that his rice didn’t show up and will blow the whistle. You could cut him in on a piece but you’re still going to have people in the warehouses and deliverymen and business office people and cooks who will spot that there’s something wrong. You get that many people involved in a criminal conspiracy there’s no way you won’t get caught. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/85 "2009-02-18T06:08:37Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I actually consider myself a moderate. But I realize that by contemporary Republican standards, I’m considered a liberal. Except in Texas. There I’m considered a communist. Well heck - I’m a moderate by European standards. But that makes me an ultraliberal within the framework of the US media. Case in point: Krugman is now considered the liberal standard-bearer. But in the 1990s he didn’t have that reputation at all and in the 1980s he was part of Reagan’s Council of Economic Advisers. His writings about the leftie Lester Thurow were pretty scathing. It was the head-in-the-sand policy process of George W Bush that sent him over the edge. I say that the world shifted around him - the batshit wing of the Republican party ballooned until only the economic and religious fundamentalists remained. I blame Reagan’s rhetoric and Gingrich’s reality, starting in 1993. That was the year that not a single House Republican voted for Clinton’s deficit-fighting plan, which laid the groundwork for the roaring 1990s. [Here’s a sample](http://www.congressmatters.com/storyonly/2009/2/15/92441/0913/399/636): > [@](#): > > On the 1993 deficit reduction package: > > Rep. Robert Michel (R-IL), Los Angeles Times, 5/28/93: > > ``` > They will remember who let loose this deadly virus into our economic bloodstream. > > ``` > > Rep. Newt Gingrich (R-GA), GOP Press Conference, House TV Gallery, 8/5/93: > > ``` > I believe this will lead to a recession next year. This is the Democrat machine's recession, and each one of them will be held personally accountable. > > ``` > > Rep. John Kasich (R-OH), 8/5/93: > > ``` > Do you know what? This is your package. We will come back here next year and try to help you when this puts the economy in the gutter... > > ``` > > Rep. John Kasich (R-OH), CNN, 7/28/93: > > ``` > This plan will not work. If it was to work, then I'd have to become a Democrat... > > ``` The plan worked exceptionally well, but Kasich was blovating. Modern conservatives are oblivious to such pisspoor track records, due to their highly emotional attachment to fundamentalist ideologies. Someone should restart the Whig party. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/86 "2009-03-27T02:52:49Z")
Update: Excerpted from the [NY Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/27/us/27judges.html?hp): > [@](#): > > \*\*Clean Slates for Youths Sentenced Fraudulently \*\* > The court on Thursday authorized the master to vacate judgments and consent decrees and to expunge the records where necessary. The special master had submitted an 11-page report that found “there was routine deprivation of children’s constitutional rights.” > > … > > He recommended vacating judgments and expunging records in cases from 2003 to 2008 in which the youth was not represented by a lawyer and did not knowingly waive the right to counsel, and which included relatively minor offenses like third-degree misdemeanors. > > “Today’s order is not intended to be a quick fix,” Ronald D. Castille, the chief judge of Pennsylvania, said in a statement. “It’s going to take some time, but the Supreme Court is committed to righting whatever wrong was perpetrated on Luzerne’s juveniles and their families.” No mention of “special” punishments the judges are due for. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/87 "2011-08-12T14:17:01Z")
Luzerne County Juvenile Court Judge Mark Ciavarella was sentenced to 28 years for getting paid to send kids to prison. Seeing as he’s 61, that could be a life sentence. The other judge, and other people involved are awaiting sentencing or trial. [The google news roundup](http://news.google.com/news/more?pz=1&jfkl=true&cf=all&ncl=dhEojGZo3qV2UuMr91JjOqvQK1M0M&topic=n) and [a Reuters summary.](http://www.reuters.com/assets/print?aid=USTRE77A6KG20110811). ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/88 "2011-08-12T16:03:28Z")
Good. It took awhile but at least the judges are getting some kind of punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/89 "2011-08-12T16:32:06Z")
Well, I would rather see them beaten to death by the kids whose lives they ruined, but this is still good news. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/90 "2011-08-12T17:49:45Z")
Then we’d have to send the kids back to jail, which would kind of ruin the whole vindication thing. ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/91 "2011-08-12T18:40:15Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Good. It took awhile but at least the judges are getting some kind of punishment. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/92 "2011-08-12T19:53:26Z")
The asshole still denies he did anything wrong. He said he wasn’t paid a bribe for each kid, it was “a finder’s fee”. He plans to appeal everything. His lawyer thinks is claiming that Ciavarella has suffered enough, what with being called the “cash for kinds” judge. They’re planning on appealing the sentance and the conviction. ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/93 "2011-08-12T19:55:27Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > The asshole still denies he did anything wrong. He said he wasn’t paid a bribe for each kid, it was “a finder’s fee”. He plans to appeal everything. His lawyer thinks is claiming that Ciavarella has suffered enough, what with being called the “cash for kinds” judge. They’re planning on appealing the sentance and the conviction. That is just sick. Is there any justice? Is stuff like this happening anywhere else? ---
**Author:** ![Azeotrope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/0ea827/32.png) [@Azeotrope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azeotrope)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/94 "2011-08-12T19:56:38Z")
Luzerne County-ite weighing in here: This whole affair has been such a clusterfuck that people around here aren’t even happy about the news. The plight of the kids and their families who got put through hell are definitely the saddest part, but uncovering the kids for cash thing was like picking the scab off what looks like a little cut and finding out it’s a gash that goes right into an artery. Besides Con-Man and Shitarella, the corruption has so far taken out at least 2 other judges, a county commissioner, lawyers, real estate developers, a bunch of local businessmen, people in the prothonotary and sheriff’s offices, a school board director, and a bunch of others I can’t even remember. Public trust in the county government is lower than a snake’s asshole and I don’t know that it will ever recover. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/95 "2011-08-12T19:58:33Z")
Wow there was a Judging Amy episode about this exact thing :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Azeotrope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/0ea827/32.png) [@Azeotrope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azeotrope)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/96 "2011-08-12T19:59:55Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > The asshole still denies he did anything wrong. He said he wasn’t paid a bribe for each kid, it was “a finder’s fee”. He plans to appeal everything. His lawyer thinks is claiming that Ciavarella has suffered enough, what with being called the “cash for kinds” judge. They’re planning on appealing the sentance and the conviction. Unsurprising. The lawyer in question is one of the biggest scumbags around; when you hear he’s defending someone you know they’re guilty as sin but you wonder what kind of technicality they’ll get off on. ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/97 "2011-08-12T20:03:13Z")
I’m still in complete disbelief. Everything mentioned in this thread was really hard for me to swallow. We put our faith in judges to be fair… It’s just hard for me to put into words how truly horrifying this is. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/98 "2011-08-12T20:25:24Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > The asshole still denies he did anything wrong. He said he wasn’t paid a bribe for each kid, it was “a finder’s fee”. He plans to appeal everything. His lawyer thinks is claiming that Ciavarella has suffered enough, what with being called the “cash for kinds” judge. They’re planning on appealing the sentance and the conviction. How does calling it a finders fee make it any better? Does this man have ANY grip at all on what it should mean to be a judge? No matter what you call it, it was an incentive to impose overly harsh, unjust sentences. That’s unethical. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/99 "2011-08-12T23:50:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Then we’d have to send the kids back to jail, which would kind of ruin the whole vindication thing. Ironically, there ain’t a jury in criminal court that would convict them. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499/100 "2011-08-13T00:00:07Z")
This sort of perversion of justice is the very worst sort of crime, far worse than your armed robbery or aggravated assault or even rape or murder. It unravels the cloth of civilization, destroying trust in the social contract that forms the very basis of our society, without which we would live out our lives in a Hobbesian state of nature. When I saw this thread title I thought to myself, “Please let it be an update that the judge has been sentenced to serious time.” I am satisfied - not pleased, as the damage he has done can’t be undone - but satisfied. 28 years is no slap on the wrist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corrupt-juvie-court-judges/485499.md?page=6)