# Corruption **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2010, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corruption/551627 "2010-08-27T04:00:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Templeton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Templeton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Templeton)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corruption/551627/1 "2010-08-27T04:00:52Z")
I think we are draining ourselves of valuable energy by toiling on this Liberal vs. Conservative battlefield. I think its the wrong fight right now. I don’t see how any agenda - liberal or conservative can be implemented in a positive, meaningful way, when there is significant corruption. The question here is, what can be done about corruption (government, free market, society, education etc.)? I hope this does not transform into a partisan rumble. The other threads are great places to go if you want to focus on who or what is most corrupt. Mainly for this discussion - where are the biggest opportunities for corruption, and how do we mitigate them? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corruption/551627/2 "2010-08-27T04:15:51Z")
Certainly there is corruption, especially with large government contracts for materials and services. I think it might add 10 or 20 percent on to the cost of doing business, which on the whole is pretty easily sustainable. We can go on and on about corruption in electoral politics. Some would identify that AS the battle between conservatives and progressives. I can think of a bunch of possible solutions, but it may be that some or all of them are not constitutional. Public financing of campaigns, free air time for political candidates, spending limits on campaigns, donation limits on campaigns, time limits on campaigns, more disclosure laws for political contributions. Personally, I think there should be National Service and people should be drafted by lot into public office. Random selection to serve a 4 year term. I’m pretty sure this will never happen. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corruption/551627/3 "2010-08-27T04:20:38Z")
I think the problem that you’re going to run into is that the definition of what is corrupt tends to break down along ideological lines. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corruption/551627/4 "2010-08-27T04:21:01Z")
> [@Templeton](#): > > I think we are draining ourselves of valuable energy by toiling on this Liberal vs. Conservative battlefield. I think its the wrong fight right now. I don’t see how any agenda - liberal or conservative can be implemented in a positive, meaningful way, when there is significant corruption. The question here is, what can be done about corruption (government, free market, society, education etc.)? > > I hope this does not transform into a partisan rumble. The other threads are great places to go if you want to focus on who or what is most corrupt. > > Mainly for this discussion - where are the biggest opportunities for corruption, and how do we mitigate them? Corruption can only happen when a transaction occurs that has one side backed by the legal use of force or coercion. A customs agent. A border guard. A food inspector. An official at the central bank. All of these share a similar trait…they _are not_ the product of two parties coming together voluntarily to conduct a transaction of their own free will. One of the parties has the legal use of force at his disposal. So you will notice a very high correlation (I would estimate 100%, or an R^2 = 1.0) of corruption in transactions initiated by government, or that have a government body on one side of the transaction. Therefore, the less the government is involved in the lives of its citizens, the less corruption there will be. You cannot keep inserting more and more government control into the lives of its citizenry and expect less corruption. You might as well drop an apple and expect it to fall upwards. ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corruption/551627/5 "2010-08-27T05:11:33Z")
As long as the government controls a large amount of wealth, there will some corrupt people trying to grab a piece of that wealth. As Willie Sutton supposedly said when asked why he robbed banks, that’s where the money is. The problem is, while corruption itself is not partisan, when caught it quickly turns partisan as people on one side try using corruption as a broad brush to paint their opponents. So the other side naturally tries downplaying the corruption so that they can’t be attacked by it. The only real solutions are either to make the government control so little money it isn’t corrupting or some sort of non-partisan oversight which is respected by all. Good luck with either of those. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corruption/551627/6 "2010-08-27T05:51:44Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > Corruption can only happen when a transaction occurs that has one side backed by the legal use of force or coercion. > > A customs agent. A border guard. A food inspector. An official at the central bank. Nonsense! I’ve worked as a consultant at several Fortune 500 corporations, and they were always dealing with corruption:[ul] [li]A grocery wholesalers with corrupt deals between delivery drivers & loading dock workers, to under-report incoming goods and then split the takings.[/li][li]Also at that wholesale grocery company, corrupt deals between corporate inspectors and store managers, to overlook inspection violations in return for cash or goods.[/li][li]Also at that grocery company, deals between department managers and employees, to pad the reported hours for employees, and then split the extra pay.[/li][li]At a major agri-business company, corrupt deals where a grain elevator manager would record a farmer’s grain as a higher quality than actual, for a cash bribe. (Dumb managers would try to do this by over-reporting the amount of grain received, but this was much easier to catch when totals didn’t balance.)[/li][li]At a major department store chain, corrupt deals between a company auditor and various department managers, to fix sales/profits reports and split the resulting bonuses.[/li][li]At a national railroad, a corrupt deal between a railyard maintenance manager and a private company hired to clean freight cars, to report extra cars as done, and then split the extra payments.[/li][/ul] Such corrupt deals are real common. They can happen whenever one employee is supervising the reported work or goods delivered by another employee or outside vendor. ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corruption/551627/7 "2010-08-27T06:47:15Z")
t boneham thank you!!! One of the things that annoys the EFF out of me is that some people think that the private system is some sort of corruption free utopia. There’s corruption EVERYWHERE! ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corruption/551627/8 "2010-08-27T07:14:18Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > t boneham thank you!!! One of the things that annoys the EFF out of me is that some people think that the private system is some sort of corruption free utopia. > There’s corruption EVERYWHERE! As is inefficiency and bureaucracy. I worked a few years at a local government, and was dismayed at the inefficiency and bureaucracy I saw in some departments. Then I went to work for a century-old railroad, and really discovered what bureaucracy was! ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corruption/551627/9 "2010-08-27T07:26:33Z")
The only answer would be genetic engineering. > [@Templeton](#): > > I don’t see how any agenda - liberal or conservative can be implemented in a positive, meaningful way, when there is significant corruption. Look at pretty much any government program and you’ll find tons of money going to \* interesting\* places. This is not a bug. It’s a feature. > [@](#): > > I think we are draining ourselves of valuable energy by toiling on this Liberal vs. Conservative battlefield. I think its the wrong fight right now. Yes, the so called liberal vs. conservative narrative in America is a fabricated, meaningless diversion. But for people like us national politics is something to be tolerated, not influenced, so it doesn’t much matter either way. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corruption/551627/10 "2010-08-27T09:09:04Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > Therefore, the less the government is involved in the lives of its citizens, the less corruption there will be. You cannot keep inserting more and more government control into the lives of its citizenry and expect less corruption. You might as well drop an apple and expect it to fall upwards. A pretty facile analysis. You really think there’s less corruption in Afghanistan or the border regions of Pakistan compared to the UK? Which government is involved in the lives of citizens more? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corruption/551627/11 "2010-08-30T14:17:02Z")
Here in Massachusetts, corruption is a way of life…it has been going on since colonial days. First, take public buildings…every public building put up in MA is shoddily constructed and substandard-take the recent “Big Dig” highway projects. Originally budgeted at $2.2. billion, it is now $22 billion and rising-meanwhile, the tunnels leak, roof panels fall off, and in general, it looks like major repairs will be required (more billions). The general contractor (Bechtel Parsons Brinkerhoff) was exposed as incompetent…and guess what? The state just awarded a $532 construction contract to (Drum roll) Bechtel Parsons Brinkerhoff! This extends to the local level-the cityof Newton decided to replace a 35 year old HS-and estimates put construction at $88 million-it is now $212 million (the graft has to come from somewhere). Judgeships and public jobs are bough and sold to the highest bidder-a recent scandal concerns the state dept. of probabtion-run by a worthless hack (now under investigation)-turns out he sold jobs to politicians friends and relatives. Reform is impossible, because the corrupt state Democratic party has a hammerlock on everything-courts, agencies, and legislature. Massachusetts is like a 3rd world country-except it is inhabited by wealthy people and highly educated people-who don’t give a damn. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corruption/551627/12 "2010-08-30T14:44:42Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > Corruption can only happen when a transaction occurs that has one side backed by the legal use of force or coercion. What absolute bollocks. Did you read this before posting it? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corruption/551627/13 "2010-08-30T15:14:32Z")
Hell, when I was selecting bidders to wire a building I was working at, I got offered a bribe to select one guy. I honestly didn’t get what he was offering me till it was waaaay too awkward, and then he took himself out of the bidding. But that was private to private, and the only coercion involved was love of the greenback dollar. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corruption/551627/14 "2010-08-30T16:13:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > > > Corruption can only happen when a transaction occurs that has one side backed by the legal use of force or coercion. > > What absolute bollocks. Did you read this before posting it? Oh, it certainly can happen through deception of private parties. But it is more difficult and is always dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/corruption/551627/15 "2010-08-30T16:17:21Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > Corruption can only happen when a transaction occurs that has one side backed by the legal use of force or coercion. > > A customs agent. A border guard. A food inspector. An official at the central bank. > > All of these share a similar trait…they _are not_ the product of two parties coming together voluntarily to conduct a transaction of their own free will. One of the parties has the legal use of force at his disposal. > > So you will notice a very high correlation (I would estimate 100%, or an R^2 = 1.0) of corruption in transactions initiated by government, or that have a government body on one side of the transaction. > > Therefore, the less the government is involved in the lives of its citizens, the less corruption there will be. You cannot keep inserting more and more government control into the lives of its citizenry and expect less corruption. You might as well drop an apple and expect it to fall upwards. This is one of the most ridiculous posts I’ve ever read on the dope. So the mafia aren’t corrupt? The people running Enron weren’t corrupt? A sports star who takes a bribe to throw a game isn’t corrupt?