# Costs of public workers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/costs-of-public-workers/619810 "2012-04-24T16:18:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/costs-of-public-workers/619810/1 "2012-04-24T16:18:19Z")
The topic of government pay and public sector unions keeps coming up, but the threads usually devolve into shouting matches. I’m hoping that we can have a civil thread that looks at the actual facts about these issues. Since the economic crisis hit in 2012, many states and cities in the USA have faced budget disasters. California is the best-known case. In order to make up a budget shortfall, the state government was forced to furlough workers, shut down most government offices for a few days each month, and make drastic cuts to K-12 education, higher education, state parks, state highways, assistance to the poor, and many other areas. The same story has been playing out on a smaller scale all over the country. Naturally most people would prefer to not have such things happen in their state or city, or to not happen again if they’ve already happened once. It thus seems reasonable to ask why these things happened and what needs to be done to prevent them from happening again. The first thing to note is that while the economic crisis was the immediate cause of government shortfalls because it cut revenue, that can’t be the end of the story. Part of a government’s job is to be aware of things that are happening in the world and to be prepared for obvious dangers such as a recession. Indeed, some state and city governments did that and made it through the past few years without having to take drastic measures. And we’ve been through recessions of various sizes before without having the consequences for state and local governments that we’re seeing this time. So the question that has to be asked is, why did some state and local governments put themselves in a situation where the recession forced disastrous cutbacks? The second thing to note is that every government budget has two sides, revenue and spending. When there’s a shortfall, one can blame either low revenue, high spending, or both. Some have blamed California’s crisis on a 1973 resolution that makes it very difficult to raise taxes. However, California’s tax burden is one of the highest in the nation. If we look at [the list](http://money.cnn.com/2009/04/10/pf/taxes/state_tax_rates/index.htm), we see that 8 of the 10 states with the highest tax burdens as of 2009 were among those who had layoffs or furloughs in that year (New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, California, Maryland, Hawaii, Ohio, and Wisconsin). There’s a similar story with cities. Detroit, currently the scene of a high-profile financial disaster, has [a sky-high tax rate.](http://www.freep.com/article/20110102/COL33/101020437/1336/OPINION/Detroit-must-jettison-its-losing-tax-scheme) I offer it as a postulate that a city or state with a tax rate well above average can’t get out of its budget hole by raising taxes even more. So solving the budget crisis that some places are in, and averting repetition of such things, must involve looking at spending. Total state and local government spending has gone [up 60%](http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/total-state-spending-has-not-been-cut/) in since 2000, and realistically almost all the increase was in just 8 years, from 2000 to 2008. It’s not as if state and local governments were doing a great deal more in 2008 than they did in 2000. If anyone has offered a solution to the budget mess in California and other states that doesn’t involve chopping down the [soaring salaries](http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/01/31/on-the-money-calif-public-employees-highest-paid-of-any-state/) and [pension benefits](http://reason.com/archives/2010/01/12/class-war/singlepage) of public workers, I’m not aware of it. Many try to phrase this as a Republican vs. Democrat issue, but it’s actually an issue of those who want a financial stable government vs. those who don’t seem to care. [Some Democrats](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-pat-quinn-illinois-pensions-0421-20120421,0,2328090.story) are willing to acknowledge the problems and try to fix it. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/costs-of-public-workers/619810/2 "2012-04-24T16:59:45Z")
The economic crisis of _2012_? What the hell is that? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/costs-of-public-workers/619810/3 "2012-04-24T17:21:38Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > The economic crisis of _2012_? What the hell is that? So far, it appears to be something that didn’t happen but is being widely invoked as another reason to trash those people who choose to exercise their contitutional right to freely associate in ways that others don’t approve of; i.e. by belonging to unions. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/costs-of-public-workers/619810/4 "2012-04-24T17:52:10Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Since the economic crisis hit in 2012 I’m sure I speak for many when I say that your secret of cross-timeline posting is far more important and interesting than whatever the original topic of this thread was. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/costs-of-public-workers/619810/5 "2012-04-24T19:09:16Z")
It was a typo. I meant to write ‘2008’ rather than ‘2012’. I apologize for any confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/costs-of-public-workers/619810/6 "2012-04-25T03:41:17Z")
Ah, so the mess created by Wall Street corruption in 2008 should be resolved by attacking Main Street freedom of association – sort of like when one of my cats got pissed off about having her claws clipped and took out her frustrations on one of the other cats. Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/costs-of-public-workers/619810/7 "2012-04-25T03:49:41Z")
Clearly the 2008 Wall Street crisis would not have happened if those financial wizards hadn’t had all those pension funds to play with, therefore the fault lies with the unions. Or something like that. :dubious: :rolleyes: 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/costs-of-public-workers/619810/8 "2012-04-25T12:07:56Z")
Yeah, those county librarians and their ilk, sitting there with huge salaries, generous retirement packages and lets not forget those excessive bonuses they get every year. When the revolution comes they will be the first ones against the wall! ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/costs-of-public-workers/619810/9 "2012-04-25T13:00:15Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Ah, so the mess created by Wall Street corruption in 2008 should be resolved by attacking Main Street freedom of association – sort of like when one of my cats got pissed off about having her claws clipped and took out her frustrations on one of the other cats. Gotcha. My OP is not about Wall Street corruption nor about Main Street Freedom of Association. As you can see if you read it, it’s about state and local government budgets. Do you have anything to say about that topic? From the looks of it, it seems that you prefer changing the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/costs-of-public-workers/619810/10 "2012-04-25T14:22:20Z")
California’s problems are in part because their “high tax rate” is income tax and sales tax, which vary a lot with the economy, while the more stable and reliable property tax rates were gutted in the 1970s. Low property taxes are also partly responsible for the housing bubble, which in turn is partly responsible for the 2008 crash. Just one strand of many, but there you go. When I was there and furloughed (higher education), we were told that we were forbidden from working on our furlough days, but our workload was not, in fact, reduced, so it was really just a scheme to force us into being more productive for less pay. This, of course, varies a lot by industry. Another part of the problem is that infrastructure maintenance costs are increasing, and were never really a part of the budget. They tend to delay maintenance and only repair water mains, for instance, after breaks. This makes each repair more expensive in a few different ways. It’s pretty much impossible to stick to a budget when you have no savings and use the equivalent of a credit card for every emergency. Add to that, the pay scales are unfair, and out of whack with the private sector. Some public-sector employees receive ridiculous pay, whether too high or too low, but those who are doing well have a strong interest in not having the light shone on them. At the same time, it’s an easy rhetorical target: while we’re focusing on public sector workers, we can shout and get attention and votes while not dealing with the real problems. It’s also very, very difficult to remove administrative bloat, which accounts for a lot of government spending. This is particularly true because a lot of these adminitrators are actually doing good work; it’s just that the system could function without them. But how to you fire and eliminate the position of an employee who is doing his or her job well? Whose job is it to look at the bigger picture and be the axe (wo)man in the name of the greater good? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/costs-of-public-workers/619810/11 "2012-04-25T14:41:04Z")
The very same article the OP cites about the “soaring” salaries of California emplyees also points out that California has [the lowest ratio of public employees to total population](http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/01/31/on-the-money-calif-public-employees-highest-paid-of-any-state/)of any state. By that measurement, it looks like California is doing a good job of making things more efficient. Also, are there any cites for the staff:supervisor ratio? Since management tends to earn a higher salary that can skew averages upward. I notice that the California governor’s salary was cut to [$173,987](http://www.therichest.org/nation/highest-paid-america-governors/), but state legislators still get $[95,291 plus $173 per diem](http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/California_state_government_salary)when the legislature is in session. So what are the alternatives? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/costs-of-public-workers/619810/12 "2012-04-25T20:42:54Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Another part of the problem is that infrastructure maintenance costs are increasing, and were never really a part of the budget. They tend to delay maintenance and only repair water mains, for instance, after breaks. This makes each repair more expensive in a few different ways. It’s pretty much impossible to stick to a budget when you have no savings and use the equivalent of a credit card for every emergency. > > Add to that, the pay scales are unfair, and out of whack with the private sector. Some public-sector employees receive ridiculous pay, whether too high or too low, but those who are doing well have a strong interest in not having the light shone on them. At the same time, it’s an easy rhetorical target: while we’re focusing on public sector workers, we can shout and get attention and votes while not dealing with the real problems. > > It’s also very, very difficult to remove administrative bloat, which accounts for a lot of government spending. This is particularly true because a lot of these adminitrators are actually doing good work; it’s just that the system could function without them. But how to you fire and eliminate the position of an employee who is doing his or her job well? Whose job is it to look at the bigger picture and be the axe (wo)man in the name of the greater good? I’m not suprised b any of this. In any government as large as the state level, there will be substantial examples of bloat and inefficiencies. It would be ever-so-nice if we could have a government that mercilessly trimmed its budget, cut out unnecessary positions, and carefully planned to minimize long-term infrastructure costs. Many centuries of history suggest that this simply isn’t possible. While small-scale changes to the budget happen all the time, it’s a few big decisions that determine a state’s financial destiny. When California decided to give public employees extremely generous pensions, that was a big decision that set the state on the path to financial calamity. While certain small fixes to small budget items are certainly welcome, they won’t be sufficient to cover the promised pension costs. What’s needed is a big decision to take action before the pension tsunami hits. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/costs-of-public-workers/619810/13 "2012-04-25T20:51:44Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > The very same article the OP cites about the “soaring” salaries of California emplyees also points out that California has [the lowest ratio of public employees to total population](http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/01/31/on-the-money-calif-public-employees-highest-paid-of-any-state/)of any state. By that measurement, it looks like California is doing a good job of making things more efficient. Laternately, it could be that California is just doing a bad job. To cite just one popular measure, California’s student-teacher ratio [is among the nation’s highest](https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:MQCsJOK9SwEJ:www.educationminnesota.org/news/newsroom/newsreleases/2011/~/media/Files/Sections/News/News%2520Releases/ClassSizeSheet.ashx+average+class+size+by+state&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESg6IryetYvaXGIOpAPCZ_6g0yfb_dbN0_wltTR6SAushfyG0YInbRUcf_tNsIDv6rqY7zFDfKpxdf5agg66CrpeG99WFchyrG2IBEMMQsIHsklb95mlvCjmskvquxesu3LHWH5u&sig=AHIEtbRTS1zgyLIWnkYEG4g-P4noGFQTiA). Since the state government and its employee unions reached a mutual agreement to give the public employees high salaries, higher pensions, and lavish benefits, the necessary result is that they can’t afford nearly as many employees as some other states. > [@](#): > > So what are the alternatives? I see two main alternatives. One is to do what Governor Quinn is trying to do in Illinois, which is to take on the unions and fight for reduced benefits, thereby getting the state on a sound financial footing. The other alternative is the one that California seems certain to take, keeping spending and deal with financial shortfalls by furloughs and other desperate measures that no one wants to see. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/costs-of-public-workers/619810/14 "2012-04-25T22:12:33Z")
OK you’ve posted about wasteful government spending in California. I pointed out that your own cites show that California has the lowest ratio of public employees to population. Your reply is that shows that the goveernment is doing a bad job. I’m outta here. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/costs-of-public-workers/619810/15 "2012-04-25T22:53:48Z")
Sorry, accidentally hit post with a partially-formed thought. I’ll be back. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/costs-of-public-workers/619810/16 "2012-04-26T00:37:48Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > I’m outta here. If you’re outta here, I guess I’m not going to get any clarification of your posts, but I’m a bit puzzled. The financial disaster that hit California from 2008 up to the present seems fairly factual. I know of no one who thinks it was a good thing or would want to see it repeated. So do you have a proposal for balancing California’s books? I don’t see how noting California’s low ratio of public employees to population is going to solve the problem. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/costs-of-public-workers/619810/17 "2012-04-26T00:57:51Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > If you’re outta here, I guess I’m not going to get any clarification of your posts, but I’m a bit puzzled. The financial disaster that hit California from 2008 up to the present seems fairly factual. I know of no one who thinks it was a good thing or would want to see it repeated. So do you have a proposal for balancing California’s books? I don’t see how noting California’s low ratio of public employees to population is going to solve the problem. The reason for the disaster was explained to you. When the basis for revenue is founded upon income tax, you will come up short exactly when you need the money the most. You are assuming an immediate balancing of the books is necessary. I don’t think it is. However, if you’re looking for a source that would help, I note that for every dollar California sends to the Fed, 78 cents comes back. I haven’t done the math, but eyeballing the difference, I think our budget woes would be corrected quite nicely. Another area to look at is the huge California prison system and the high cost per inmate. A few billion potentially to be saved there if you decriminalized drugs and fixed the prison bloat. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/costs-of-public-workers/619810/18 "2012-04-26T02:52:30Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > If you’re outta here, I guess I’m not going to get any clarification of your posts, but I’m a bit puzzled. The financial disaster that hit California from 2008 up to the present seems fairly factual. I know of no one who thinks it was a good thing or would want to see it repeated. So do you have a proposal for balancing California’s books? I don’t see how noting California’s low ratio of public employees to population is going to solve the problem. You asked so nicely that I believe you sincerely want to debate this. So I’ll come back. It’s my belief that the California financial crisis began with [Proposition 13](http://www.boe.ca.gov/proptaxes/pdf/pub29.pdf) in 1978. That act not only rolled back property taxes but eliminated a state budget surplus. Combine that constriction on the city and county governments’ inability to raise revenue (thus shifting more of the burden of providing services to the state) with the charming California initiative system, where anyone can propose anything, including simultaneous measures dedicated to increasing expenses and cutting revenues. A quick look at the propositions currently pending, for example, include [this one](http://ag.ca.gov/cms_attachments/initiatives/pdfs/i1059_12-0011_a1s_(college_tuition_and_fees).pdf?) mandating that the state’s colleges roll back tutition and fees to 2010 levels, reduce spending to pre-2010 levels and NOT cut student aid amounts. Good luck with that. And just for good measure, we can always point to drastic mismangement, like the people of [Bell](http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/09/22/us-california-payscandal-arrests-idUSTRE68K40N20100922) had to go through, or the [Orange County bankruptcy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_County,_California). So if you’re sincerely asking how I’d balance California’s books, I’d start with more rigorous auditing, keep an eye on your elected officials, reform your intiative process so that ballot measures have to include a cost analysis understandable by voters, and fix your unbalaced tax structure. Maybe after you fix all the instutitional problems in your economic system, you can look at employee salaries and benefits. Otherwise, your position smacks of blaming the employees for the mismanagement of the bosses. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/costs-of-public-workers/619810/19 "2012-04-26T03:09:54Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > It’s my belief that the California financial crisis began with [Proposition 13](http://www.boe.ca.gov/proptaxes/pdf/pub29.pdf) in 1978. That act not only rolled back property taxes but eliminated a state budget surplus. The other thing about Prop 13 is that it took a couple of decades for the effects to be felt. The state infrastructure coasted for a couple of years. It did very well in years when the economy was good, and in bad years the state coped with a variety of short-term strategies. It’s only now, nearly 35 years after Prop 13, that the state is realizing what a hole it has dug itself. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/costs-of-public-workers/619810/20 "2012-04-26T15:50:53Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > The reason for the disaster was explained to you. When the basis for revenue is founded upon income tax, you will come up short exactly when you need the money the most. If you had said five years ago that real estate taxes were very stable and reliable, that would have made sense. But are they right now? Housing prices in California have plunged by about half since the crisis started. Since property taxes depend on assessed value, that presumably means that property taxes have plunged as well. Have income and sales taxes fallen more than property taxes? (I don’t know the answer, but I’d be interested in seeing some numbers on the issue.) > [@](#): > > You are assuming an immediate balancing of the books is necessary. I don’t think it is. All states are required to have a balanced budget each year. Of course they can finance things with bonds to be paid back later, but given how [interest on past bonds is a large part of California’s current problems](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/03/05/EDEI1H57IL.DTL), that’s not a wise long-term solution. > [@](#): > > Another area to look at is the huge California prison system and the high cost per inmate. A few billion potentially to be saved there if you decriminalized drugs and fixed the prison bloat. I entirely agree that scaling back the War on Drugs is an excellent idea for saving money and other reasons as well. However, in the budget “Corrections and Rehabilitation” is $7.8 billion, small compared to education and “Health and Human Services”. Moreover, much of that $7.8 billion goes to those unionized prison guards who are among the biggest earners, and are part of the problem that needs to be dealt with. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/costs-of-public-workers/619810.md?page=2)