# Could a European style "soccer" league survive in the US **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 19, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-european-style-soccer-league-survive-in-the-us/740821 "2015-12-19T01:11:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-european-style-soccer-league-survive-in-the-us/740821/1 "2015-12-19T01:11:45Z")
Football is in my experience football (aka soccer) is increasing in popularity in the US (I am brit living on West Coast since 2003). But despite what is now a fairly widespread appreciation for the beautiful game, among almost all the yanks I know who follow football the MLS is held in a pretty poor regard. I would say US football fans I’ve met who follow an English Premier League team outnumber those who follow an MLS team by a lot. My thought is that a solution to this is to replace the US style franchise system the MLS uses with a [proper league system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_football_league_system). Rather than having a major league with a set of handpicked franchises, where you only get to have a major league by convincing another franchise to move to your town or convincing the league to expand, your major league is just the top of a hierarchy of leagues. If your team finishes at the bottom it’s relegated to the league below, regardless of how “big” a team it is and who is backing it, it is replaced by the team that finished top of the league below. Titans teams can [fall](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rzG_j_flw8) and minnows can reach the top. It seems like this way you could improve local support and take advantage of the considerable grass-roots support for football in the US. If you support your local “minor league” team and it does well it can get promotion to the major league. I suppose the main problem is distances involved (I guess this is why US don’t traditionally have leagues that work this way). The mythical “[Wet wednesday night in Stoke](http://footballcliches.spreadshirt.co.uk/cold-wet-wednesday-night-in-stoke-A25550519)” is a bit more of an ordeal if its a wet wednesday night in New York and your team is San Deigo. Has this ever been tried in the US, in any sport? Would it work? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-european-style-soccer-league-survive-in-the-us/740821/2 "2015-12-19T01:41:03Z")
You might persuade some smaller-market folks that _promotion_ is a great idea, but I have grave doubts that American fans will ever cotton on to the possibility of _relegation_. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-european-style-soccer-league-survive-in-the-us/740821/3 "2015-12-19T02:29:16Z")
I tend to agree. Relegation would be a bitter pill to swallow, particularly for a big-market team. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-european-style-soccer-league-survive-in-the-us/740821/4 "2015-12-19T04:54:46Z")
There are no lower leagues to relegate a team to, or to promote a team from. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-european-style-soccer-league-survive-in-the-us/740821/5 "2015-12-19T05:18:27Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > There are no lower leagues to relegate a team to, or to promote a team from. The US has two lower leagues (North American Soccer League and United Soccer League). ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-european-style-soccer-league-survive-in-the-us/740821/6 "2015-12-19T08:26:37Z")
Its good business actually. It creates interest in relegation zone teams. And its a check on greedy owners who want to live off tv money and invest as little as possible in his team ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-european-style-soccer-league-survive-in-the-us/740821/7 "2015-12-19T10:32:57Z")
The problem with promotion/relegation is that it is counter to how sports have been set up here. In an ideal world, it would work especially in college sports. However, as much as Americans like to brag about how someone can come from nothing and achieve limitless success, which would be the meritorious promoting/relegation system, the fact is our country is controlled by privileged elites. Over the past 30 years, the NFL, NBA, NHL and MLB, as well as Major League Soccer have sold franchises, or new teams, to cities for millions and millions of dollars, regardless of their ability to field a competitive team Oh and their stadium? Usually funded by taxpayers Where is the incentive to compete? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-european-style-soccer-league-survive-in-the-us/740821/8 "2015-12-19T15:47:49Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > There are no lower leagues to relegate a team to, or to promote a team from. > [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > The US has two lower leagues (North American Soccer League and United Soccer League). And even if there hadn’t been existing lower leagues, you’d just have to set them up when you set up the new league. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-european-style-soccer-league-survive-in-the-us/740821/9 "2015-12-19T20:03:56Z")
The American league systems are exclusionary and cowardly and I’ll never follow a non pro/rel league again. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-european-style-soccer-league-survive-in-the-us/740821/10 "2015-12-20T07:00:49Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > The American league systems are exclusionary and cowardly and I’ll never follow a non pro/rel league again. I think this is unfair considering how spread out the population of the US is. I’m sure the New York Cosmos and the Ottawa Fury (the league champ and the runner-up of the US’s “Division II” league) would love to be promoted, and they probably could be, but the stadium infrastructure for most teams in the league couldn’t support an MLS crowd. Most teams in the league can barely sell 10,000 tickets per game. Their stadiums are just too small. Conversely, the stadiums for MLS teams are much too big to be relegated to a lower level. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-european-style-soccer-league-survive-in-the-us/740821/11 "2015-12-20T07:30:31Z")
it’s an interesting question, but basically irrelevant. The reason Americans don’t like soccer is not due to the how the system of leagues works. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-european-style-soccer-league-survive-in-the-us/740821/12 "2015-12-20T07:56:41Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > it’s an interesting question, but basically irrelevant. > The reason Americans don’t like soccer is not due to the how the system of leagues works. Americans love soccer, so all the assumptions made by the OP are a bit off base. From [Major League Soccer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Soccer)… “Average MLS attendance exceeds that of the National Hockey League (NHL) and National Basketball Association (NBA).” The only problem the MLS has is that the Premier League is more popular with US fans, which makes total sense as it offers a higher level of play and most of the international stars we see in the World Cup. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-european-style-soccer-league-survive-in-the-us/740821/13 "2015-12-20T08:31:52Z")
That’s pretty disingenuous given basketball and hockey are played indoors. And MLS attendances still only just [beat them](http://www.statista.com/statistics/207458/per-game-attendance-of-major-us-sports-leagues/). And [average ticket prices](http://www.statista.com/statistics/261588/average-ticket-price-major-us-sports-leagues/) for the NBA ($62.18) and NHL ($53.98) are significantly more expensive than[MLS tickets](http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/09/24/study-mls-tickets-are-worlds-worst-soccer-value) ($46.22) as well. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-european-style-soccer-league-survive-in-the-us/740821/14 "2015-12-20T09:39:27Z")
Significantly? Soccer is the one sport that never sold out to tv. It still a 90 minute game played in under 2 hours. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-european-style-soccer-league-survive-in-the-us/740821/15 "2015-12-20T13:40:01Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > That’s pretty disingenuous given basketball and hockey are played indoors. And MLS attendances still only just [beat them](http://www.statista.com/statistics/207458/per-game-attendance-of-major-us-sports-leagues/). How is that disingenuous? Yes, outdoor stadiums are typically bigger than indoor stadiums, but if soccer is as horribly unpopular as most people believe, that shouldn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-european-style-soccer-league-survive-in-the-us/740821/16 "2015-12-20T14:08:20Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > I think this is unfair considering how spread out the population of the US is. > > I’m sure the New York Cosmos and the Ottawa Fury (the league champ and the runner-up of the US’s “Division II” league) would love to be promoted, and they probably could be, but the stadium infrastructure for most teams in the league couldn’t support an MLS crowd. Most teams in the league can barely sell 10,000 tickets per game. Their stadiums are just too small. > > Conversely, the stadiums for MLS teams are much too big to be relegated to a lower level. Relegation doesn’t necessarily mean an attendance hit. For one thing, you’re now likely to start winning a lot more, and there’s now a meaningful objective in getting back. Ticket prices might have to be cut though. But generally, organizations’ fortunes should rise and fall by merit. Teams that win promotion and then keep winning _ought_ to sell out their games, raise their prices, and eventually upgrade their yards. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-european-style-soccer-league-survive-in-the-us/740821/17 "2015-12-20T14:48:41Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > You might persuade some smaller-market folks that _promotion_ is a great idea, but I have grave doubts that American fans will ever cotton on to the possibility of _relegation_. Their team can always earn a promotion back. That’s part of the point. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-european-style-soccer-league-survive-in-the-us/740821/18 "2015-12-20T14:53:59Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > I think this is unfair considering how spread out the population of the US is. > > I’m sure the New York Cosmos and the Ottawa Fury (the league champ and the runner-up of the US’s “Division II” league) would love to be promoted, and they probably could be, but the stadium infrastructure for most teams in the league couldn’t support an MLS crowd. Most teams in the league can barely sell 10,000 tickets per game. Their stadiums are just too small. > > Conversely, the stadiums for MLS teams are much too big to be relegated to a lower level. The country’s size is a bit of a red herring. In larger countries the pyramid looks like a, well, pyramid, with a greater number of divisions at the lower levels to reduce travel costs. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-european-style-soccer-league-survive-in-the-us/740821/19 "2015-12-20T15:12:52Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > Their team can always earn a promotion back. That’s part of the point. That’s not going to be a comfort. Major-league status is tied up inseparably with the identities of the club, it’s fans, and the city it represents. They’re not going to agree to that system in which it can be lost. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-european-style-soccer-league-survive-in-the-us/740821/20 "2015-12-20T15:47:54Z")
Major league status can, at least in theory, be lost under the present system, when a franchise decamps for a greener pasture, or is contracted. Whereas with promotion and relegation, a reasonably interested town can be pretty much assured of always having a team somewhere in the system, with (ALIT) the long-term chance at an overall championship under their own name (rather than as a leg of someone else’s organization). Right now, most American cities have _no chance ever_ at that. Promotion/relegation has far more stakeholders than the fixed ML structure. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-european-style-soccer-league-survive-in-the-us/740821.md?page=2)