# Could A Good Case Be Made For This? (Obama/Holder Racial Divisiveness)? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 21, 2015, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-case-be-made-for-this-obama-holder-racial-divisiveness/728429 "2015-08-21T14:13:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 4\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-case-be-made-for-this-obama-holder-racial-divisiveness/728429/61 "2015-08-28T15:19:26Z")
> [@Gotlift](#): > > What would you say needs to change to fix the problems in places like Ferguson? Clearly you believe that the black community’s biggest problem is the victimization and oppression by the white establishment. You can’t exactly remove white people from the equation, but suppose you could create a black utopia with no white people (at least in positions of authority). Would that magically fix all the black community’s problems? You didn’t direct this to me, but I don’t think, at all, that a society with no white people would be a Black utopia, and it wouldn’t fix all of the community’s problems. The issue of crime is hugely complicated (I majored in Criminology in college; I even got a Master’s Degree. This is an entire field of study, with lots of research and no clear answers), so there is unfortunately no magic elixir that can eradicate it. But it correlates strongly to poverty and lack of opportunity. So, a society where every person has economic opportunity would be hugely beneficial to all inhabitants. So, too, would a community where there is no discernable difference in how people of different races (or levels of prosperity - which is really what I think this is about; targeting poor people) are treated by the police, as reflected in the incidence of traffic stops, fines, and arrests. How to get there? That’s the million dollar question. We’d have to remove the stigma of being poor. We’d have to make high quality education readily available, with a clear path to affordable college education. Ideally, local businesses would be locally owned. Increase home ownership (instead of rentals). In other words, put the locus of economic empowerment within the community, instead of making residents reliant on outside forces. Some of this, undoubtedly, requires change from within the community. But it also needs support and assistance from the rest of society. If that is vague, I apologize. As noted, there’s not a clear prescription, and lots of smart people have devoted their lives to trying to figure it out. > [@](#): > > This really is interesting conversation and I appreciate that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gotlift](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9fc348/32.png) [@Gotlift](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotlift)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-case-be-made-for-this-obama-holder-racial-divisiveness/728429/62 "2015-08-28T17:01:26Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > You didn’t direct this to me, but I don’t think, at all, that a society with no white people would be a Black utopia, and it wouldn’t fix all of the community’s problems. This, is a nut shell, is the point that I was making. > [@Moriarty](#): > > The issue of crime is hugely complicated (I majored in Criminology in college; I even got a Master’s Degree. This is an entire field of study, with lots of research and no clear answers), so there is unfortunately no magic elixir that can eradicate it. But it correlates strongly to poverty and lack of opportunity. Criminology has to be one of the most interesting, yet frustrating, fields of study. Crime happens all across the socioeconomic spectrum. The richest of the rich have just figured out how to legalize crime in the form of political corruption. I think we can all agree that buying congressmen and influence is down right criminal. But sure, violent, drug related crime is absolutely correlates to poverty. > [@Moriarty](#): > > So, a society where every person has economic opportunity would be hugely beneficial to all inhabitants. So, too, would a community where there is no discernable difference in how people of different races (or levels of prosperity - which is really what I think this is about; targeting poor people) are treated by the police, as reflected in the incidence of traffic stops, fines, and arrests. I agree, but we aren’t at the ideal state, which is equal economic opportunity for all. In the mean time police fight crime. We can call it profiling, but I don’t believe police are by and large racists looking to victimize black people. I believe they experience crime on a personal level, face to face, every day and they develop experience based on patterns of behavior. Not to mention that cops will generally chase someone who runs when they see them, regardless of race, and most times will find that the suspect ran because they were breaking the law. The police can’t and shouldn’t be expected to stop policing the black population because they are sensitive to being policed. > [@Moriarty](#): > > How to get there? That’s the million dollar question. We’d have to remove the stigma of being poor. We’d have to make high quality education readily available, with a clear path to affordable college education. Ideally, local businesses would be locally owned. Increase home ownership (instead of rentals). In other words, put the locus of economic empowerment within the community, instead of making residents reliant on outside forces. I would argue that politics are the root of much of the problem and until we get our political system in order we will not have affordable access to high quality education (K-12) for most Americans in the poor communities. Its getting far worse even in the middle class communities. It all starts there. Small business owners are generally well educated and even they are being squeezed out by corporations that can afford to buy influence via lobbyist on capital hill. Is there a stigma to being poor? Absolutely, but until we change human nature it will be there. But, I would argue that the stigma is largely placed on the poor by the poor. > [@Moriarty](#): > > Some of this, undoubtedly, requires change from within the community. But it also needs support and assistance from the rest of society. If that is vague, I apologize. As noted, there’s not a clear prescription, and lots of smart people have devoted their lives to trying to figure it out. I think change is happening, albeit very slowly, from the outside. Unfortunately it does take powder keg situations to keep the conversation going, but I think change from within the black community is where they will have the most area of influence. I grew up poor so I understand what wanting more is and even more importantly needing more. I would argue that I had below average parents in terms of parenting skills (while they were together), but I knew that regardless of the situation my expectation was to follow the rules both at home and out in public. If I were to break the law, or even the rules in school, I knew what I had coming. I didn’t do particularly well in school and I knew that college wasn’t in the picture for me so instead of living in poverty and hoping for the best I took personal responsibility for my situation and joined the military where I carved a path in a short 4 years. My point is we all have choices and responsibility for the choices we make regardless of our situation. I think it starts with parenting and the communities standing up to crime instead of tolerating it, but until parenting and personal responsibility is emphasized instead of just blaming all of it on oppression we, as a society, will get nowhere. > [@Moriarty](#): > > 🙂 Right back at ya! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![A.James](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5e925/32.png) [@A.James](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.James)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-case-be-made-for-this-obama-holder-racial-divisiveness/728429/63 "2015-08-31T13:40:18Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > 37.9%, as I read your own link. But don’t let that stop you. I tried to bold the word “known” in my original post because I knew some would make the same mistake you did. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-case-be-made-for-this-obama-holder-racial-divisiveness/728429/64 "2015-09-01T17:36:04Z")
> [@A.James](#): > > I tried to bold the word “known” in my original post because I knew some would make the same mistake you did. Respectfully, you are mistaken. > [@](#): > > but the black population makes up roughly 13 of the populace, but commit 53% of all \*\*KNOWN[/] murders. You said that “known” refers to the murders. It does not. The category of unknown (there is no “known” in your [link](https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_3_murder_offenders_by_age_sex_and_race_2012.xls)) refers to the race of the perpetrator. Did you really think that the FBI recorded 4,228 unknown murders in 2012? How would that even work? And why would the FBI report reflect that 37.9% of the murderers were Black, if that was in fact erroneous? As I stated upthread, since the race of the perpetrator in those 4,228 cases is unknown, you don’t know if it was a white person, a black person, or in the Other category. So, your conclusion is specious. The best you can say is that, in 2012, 37.9& of the murders reported to the FBI, _where the race of the perpetrator was known_, were Black. In the larger context of your argument, I think it would further behoove you to consider the percentage of murder victims who were Black. [Here](https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_1_murder_victims_by_race_and_sex_2012.xls) is that FBI chart for 2012. Did you notice that the number of Black victims is higher than the previous number of Black murderers? So, what was your point again? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-case-be-made-for-this-obama-holder-racial-divisiveness/728429.md?page=3)