# Could a good SF space series be done without FTL? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 25, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694 "2009-03-25T02:31:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/21 "2009-03-25T13:35:31Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > The best SF show without FTL travel is [Star Cops.](http://www.sff.net/people/rothman/GBF/starcops.htm) No FTL or time travel or any shortcuts. When the characters were in space, there was usually no gravity. If your rockets fired out their fuel and sent you on a course for the stars, there was no way for anyone to reach you before you ran out of air Hmmm, next you’ll be recommending [Moonbase 3](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonbase_3) (the final episode was actually not that bad). ---
**Author:** ![Spudo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Spudo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spudo)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/22 "2009-03-25T14:21:11Z")
Dan Simmons’ Hyperion books don’t have FTL ships. They have a couple other methods though, which are rather plot important. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/23 "2009-03-25T14:24:40Z")
Even series that do assume FTL have always handwaved, or, rather, completely ignored, time-dilation effects. E.g., the Enterprise never arrives at a Federation planet to find a crew member’s children have died of old age. Admittedly, since we don’t know how FTL travel would work and a series rarely even mentions a theory, we don’t know whether it would even have a time-dilation effect. But the Enterprise also uses impulse power for sublight maneuvering at what we would presume are often relativistic speeds, which would have a time-dilation effect. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/24 "2009-03-25T14:26:45Z")
> [@Pushkin](#): > > Hmmm, next you’ll be recommending [Moonbase 3](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonbase_3) (the final episode was actually not that bad). Never saw it; I did see **Star Cops** and thought it was excellent. ---
**Author:** ![Rolken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@Rolken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rolken)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/25 "2009-03-25T14:42:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Even series that do assume FTL have always handwaved, or, rather, completely ignored, time-dilation effects. The equations that give you time dilation at normal speeds send you [backwards](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon) at superliminal speeds. The usual concept of a “warp drive” implies sidestepping actual acceleration in favor of warping space, hence no effect. Also, it messes up a nice story. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/26 "2009-03-25T15:21:39Z")
I’m not sure there is any _incentive_ to doing a series with no FTL. As noted, viewers are completely accepting of ignoring causality effects of FTL. And no one ever so much as quirks an eyebrow at the _other_ pink elephant in the room – artificial gravity. If they’re willing to go along with those implausibilities, why bother trying to work without them? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/27 "2009-03-25T15:28:26Z")
One has been done – **Men into Space** , a series from 1959-1960 that followed people going out into the solar system, and ignored aliens, FTL, and other far-out Sf concepts. It was pretty hard-core, from what little I can recall . I saw it as a kid, and if it’s ever been in syndication or on video, I don’t know about it. Even books on SF television pretty much ignored it, barely mentioning it and not giving episodes. It’s only on the internet that facts about it (and scenes from it) have finally become available: > **[Men into Space](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_Into_Space)** > > Men Into Space (a.k.a. Space Challenge in later US syndication) is an American black-and-white science fiction television series, produced by Ziv Television Programs, Inc., that was first broadcast by CBS from September 30, 1959, to September 7, 1960. The series depicts future efforts by the United States Air Force to explore and develop outer space. The series' star, William Lundigan, played Col. Edward McCauley. > Men Into Space was not set in a specified time period, but clues dropped in the... I wouldn’t mind seeing some sort of updated version – an SF series set only in our solar system. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/28 "2009-03-25T15:58:48Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Never saw it; I did see **Star Cops** and thought it was excellent. I dropped the 😛 in that last post. I remember it from back in the 80s, so my memories are probably blurred by too many bad BBC special effects. ---
**Author:** ![runcible\_spoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc29f/32.png) [@runcible\_spoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runcible_spoon)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/29 "2009-03-25T16:57:11Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > One has been done – **Men into Space** , a series from 1959-1960 that followed people going out into the solar system, and ignored aliens, FTL, and other far-out Sf concepts. It was pretty hard-core, from what little I can recall . I saw it as a kid, and if it’s ever been in syndication or on video, I don’t know about it. Even books on SF television pretty much ignored it, barely mentioning it and not giving episodes. It’s only on the internet that facts about it (and scenes from it) have finally become available: > > [Men into Space - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_Into_Space) > > I wouldn’t mind seeing some sort of updated version – an SF series set only in our solar system. There’s a lot that can go on in a solar system - I guess it just depends on whether you think SF has to include new worlds and new civilizations. I highly recommend _Planetes_, a hard SF anime about a crew of debris collectors. There are definitely a few bits that made me go :dubious:, although that could just as easily be my knowledge of orbital mechanics failing as the series. They’re pretty much limited to space stations, the moon, and Earth - as I recall, they’ve visited Mars, but I don’t think there was a colony there. I guess the big difference with intra-system, hard SF is that the technology and weird-stuff-to-be-discovered takes a backseat compared to run-of-the-mill SF TV. \*Planetes \*is mostly about the characters, with a pretty heavy political backdrop. But there’s still enough cool extrapolation to satisfy the nerd in me, so I was happy. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Batman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/22d042/32.png) [@The\_Batman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Batman)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/30 "2009-03-25T17:11:13Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Even series that do assume FTL have always handwaved, or, rather, completely ignored, time-dilation effects [/QUOTE] Only series that use normal acceleration to reach the speed of light; they also ignore the amount of fuel you would need just to reach it. Other series, like Star Trek, Star Wars or BSG use the two good-old methods of Warp or Hyperspace, both side step it by either warping space to close the distance between to points or jumping you to another dimension where the laws of physics allow FTL. ---
**Author:** ![Elyanna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b5ac83/32.png) [@Elyanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elyanna)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/31 "2009-03-25T17:38:58Z")
Improve technology to the point to where everybody’s pretty darn near immortal. Time’s not so much an issue when you’ve out-lived Methuselah. Or put Tolkien’s elves in space. _Elrond in spaaaace!_ ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/32 "2009-03-25T17:49:10Z")
> [@](#): > > And no one ever so much as quirks an eyebrow at the other pink elephant in the room – artificial gravity. In _Babylon 5_, the humans at least don’t have gravtech, and gravity on the station itself is achieved through the prosaic method of spinning the station. A few other races like the Mimbari do, but it’s definitely not taken in stride: From the human perspective, gravity-control technology was one of the major “indistinguishable from magic” technologies, that all of the younger races wanted to get ahold of. ---
**Author:** ![runcible\_spoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc29f/32.png) [@runcible\_spoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runcible_spoon)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/33 "2009-03-25T19:10:44Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > In _Babylon 5_, the humans at least don’t have gravtech, and gravity on the station itself is achieved through the prosaic method of spinning the station. A few other races like the Mimbari do, but it’s definitely not taken in stride: From the human perspective, gravity-control technology was one of the major “indistinguishable from magic” technologies, that all of the younger races wanted to get ahold of. You know, they made a big deal about it, but as far as I remember, the Earth Alliance was the only one with rotating habitats on their ships… not sure we ever saw into Centauri or Narn ships, though. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/34 "2009-03-25T19:20:56Z")
In B5, Earth was, indeed, the only major group without artificial grav. However, the Whitestars had it, and the later Alliance ships (as in Crusade) had it. And I’m not really sure about some of the minor races – there was at least one race with a rotating “flying saucer” type ship, wasn’t there? Anyway, aside from the outside shots of B5 and of Earth ships, and the occasional shot of curving corridors inside B5, it went fairly unremarked-upon. And later completely gone as they shifted to use of Whitestars and Ranger ships. The only other sci-fi property I can think of without artificial grav was “2001”. Which also didn’t have FTL. Maybe… “Black Hole”, had FTL but limited artificial grav? Really, if I’m a writer, I’m going to think: heck, they’re already accepting artificial grav and maybe prosthetic-forehead aliens, why limit myself to no FTL? Or that Lovecraft-ish space movie with Sam Neil? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/35 "2009-03-25T20:21:51Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > [QUOTE=Der Trihs] > Between the Strokes of Night had an idea I thought was neat. The interstellar travellers had a process that drastically slowed their perceptions and metabolism. They didn’t actually go into suspended animation; they were conscious the whole way. They didn’t have FTL, but they perceived themselves as effectively travelling FTL because there were living so very slowly. That would be the Theory of Relativity. Your perception of time is much slower as you approach the speed o’ light. For the traveler a few days may pass but to the rest of the universe it would have been much longer. [/QUOTE] No, it’s completely different; one is an effect of relative fast travel. The other a biological alteration that works all the time, even when you are moving slowly. The biological treament also takes FAR less energy to pull off. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/36 "2009-03-25T20:50:22Z")
> [@](#): > > I guess the big difference with intra-system, hard SF is that the technology and weird-stuff-to-be-discovered takes a backseat compared to run-of-the-mill SF TV. Planetes is mostly about the characters, with a pretty heavy political backdrop. But there’s still enough cool extrapolation to satisfy the nerd in me, so I was happy. It doesn’t have to. There’s no reason interesting, weird stuff that challenges one’s expectations can’t be found in the solar system. In fact, that’s the essence of scientific discovery. One thing I like about Heinlein’s juvenile novels is that he did manage to work such stuff into them – even in the ones limited to our solar system. So we could encounter life under Europa (which is already getting stale, but isn’t played out), or artifacts somewhere in the solar system (it doesn’t have to be a monolith on the moon), or exotic states of matter or particles (a la Larry Niven’s Magnetic Monopoles, or Benford’s particles in Artifact). The challenge is building a story around it and resolving it in the time you’ve got. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/37 "2009-03-25T21:06:33Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Really, if I’m a writer, I’m going to think: heck, they’re already accepting artificial grav and maybe prosthetic-forehead aliens, why limit myself to no FTL? **Or that Lovecraft-ish space movie with Sam Neil?** How annoying; interrupted while editing. That bolded sentence should have gone on the end of the paragraph before. Where it would make sense, and not be some weird non-sequitor. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Batman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/22d042/32.png) [@The\_Batman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Batman)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/38 "2009-03-25T21:08:14Z")
That would be Event Horizon and it did have FTL, technically. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/39 "2009-03-25T21:43:56Z")
> [@runcible\_spoon](#): > > You know, they made a big deal about it, but as far as I remember, the Earth Alliance was the only one with rotating habitats on their ships… not sure we ever saw into Centauri or Narn ships, though. The Omega class destroyers were the only ships in Earth Force to have the revolving hull section. The heavy Cruiser Hyperion that shows up in season one , was shown using seatbelts for keeping the captain in a seated position. We did see inside one of the centauri ships , Londo and another centauri were watching the planet bombardment of Narn with Mass drivers and he is standing by a view port unaided. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/40 "2009-03-25T22:01:01Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > The only other sci-fi property I can think of without artificial grav was “2001”. Which also didn’t have FTL. Maybe… “Black Hole”, had FTL but limited artificial grav? There were two films about visits to Mars a while back, Red Planet and Mission to Mars (correct titles?). The ships used to shuttle people to Mars both had a form of artificial gravity from rotating sections in the ships IIRC. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694.md?page=3)