# Could a good SF space series be done without FTL? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 25, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694 "2009-03-25T02:31:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uosdwis_R.Dewoh)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/41 "2009-03-25T23:34:14Z")
Cowboy Bebop probably did not have FTL. It did have something called hyperspace gates with which they traveled from planet to planet, but only inside the Solar system. ---
**Author:** ![runcible\_spoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc29f/32.png) [@runcible\_spoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runcible_spoon)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/42 "2009-03-26T05:53:11Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > It doesn’t have to. There’s no reason interesting, weird stuff that challenges one’s expectations can’t be found in the solar system. In fact, that’s the essence of scientific discovery. One thing I like about Heinlein’s juvenile novels is that he did manage to work such stuff into them – even in the ones limited to our solar system. > > So we could encounter life under Europa (which is already getting stale, but isn’t played out), or artifacts somewhere in the solar system (it doesn’t have to be a monolith on the moon), or exotic states of matter or particles (a la Larry Niven’s Magnetic Monopoles, or Benford’s particles in Artifact). The challenge is building a story around it and resolving it in the time you’ve got. Oh, I’m certainly not saying it can’t be a big part of the story - hell, I grew up on Heinlein and Clarke, I loves me some hard SF. Just saying that when you put it next to, say, Start Trek, the percentage of the plot held up by nonexistant particles and weird-ass-space-shit will drop. This is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, the fact that you can’t just invent a new particle every time a problem comes up is what shifts the problem-solving to the characters - this is just good writing. It does make good, hard SF less common, though, especially in a TV setting where wrapping things up by the end of the episode is common (though growing less so) and time pressures are so much stronger than in written SF. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/43 "2009-03-26T16:08:49Z")
Was there FTL in Red Dwarf? ---
**Author:** ![MJinks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@MJinks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MJinks)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/44 "2009-03-26T16:56:24Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Was there FTL in Red Dwarf? They did discover a FTL drive in a derelict but they forgot to fasten it to the ship when they activated it and it flew away. There might be the odd episode where they teleport using worm/black holes or travel in time but they don’t have a FTL drive. For long distances they use cryostasis. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/45 "2009-03-26T19:39:49Z")
> [@](#): > > You know, they made a big deal about it, but as far as I remember, the Earth Alliance was the only one with rotating habitats on their ships… not sure we ever saw into Centauri or Narn ships, though. I always got the impression that the Narn just put up with zero-G because they had to. I’m not sure what the status of the Centauri was, though: I think they officially did not have gravity control, and the scene of Londo standing and looking out the window was a continuity goof. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/46 "2009-03-27T17:46:06Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Was there FTL in Red Dwarf? > [@MJinks](#): > > They did discover a FTL drive in a derelict but they forgot to fasten it to the ship when they activated it and it flew away. There might be the odd episode where they teleport using worm/black holes or travel in time but they don’t have a FTL drive. Don’t forget the improbablility drive that Holly invented. They hopped to an alternate universe, though. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/47 "2009-03-27T21:03:03Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I always got the impression that the Narn just put up with zero-G because they had to. I’m not sure what the status of the Centauri was, though: I think they officially did not have gravity control, and the scene of Londo standing and looking out the window was a continuity goof. Either that or he was wearing magnetic shoes. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/48 "2009-03-28T00:01:03Z")
Joseph Haldeman’s [_The Forever War_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forever_War) is remarkable in taking account of the time-dilation effect of space travel at relativistic speeds – William Mandella finds Earth’s society completely changed every time he goes back. ( It does feature FTL in the form of quasars as natural jump-gates, but the characters still spend a lot of time traveling at sublight relativistic speeds.) I wonder if we’ll ever see anything like that on the big or little screen? ---
**Author:** ![krisolov](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/krisolov/32/3724_2.png) [@krisolov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/krisolov)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2009, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/49 "2009-03-28T00:17:13Z")
I’ll second Dan Simmons Hyperion series for having a very interesting solution to the problem. Truly a great series and full of other terrific ideas too. I think Haldeman’s Forever War did probably the best job of capturing the disorientation as relativistic travel increasingly distanced the soldiers from the society they were serving. ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/50 "2009-03-28T00:18:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > In _Babylon 5_, the humans at least don’t have gravtech, and gravity on the station itself is achieved through the prosaic method of spinning the station. Which led to one of Londo and Sinclair’s best moments. Londo: “I’ll explain as soon as the room stops spinning.” Sinclair: “Babylon 5 uses rotation to produce gravity. This room never stops spinning.” Londo: “You see where the problem lies.” ---
**Author:** ![First\_Amongst\_Daves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@First\_Amongst\_Daves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/First_Amongst_Daves)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/51 "2009-03-30T02:47:58Z")
Lightray pre-empted me: > [@](#): > > The only other sci-fi property I can think of without artificial grav was “2001”. Which also didn’t have FTL One of the best, if not the best, sci-fi movie ever and no FTL. Also, _Alien_ and its sequels seemed to be slower than light, although not sure about that. _Sphere_ also didn’t have FTL. From memory, they came close to light speed, though. Not sure how the bad guys got around in _The Astronaut’s Wife_. Does _Blade Runner_ have FTL? Or were the replicants and colonists carted around in deep freeze? ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/52 "2009-03-30T02:56:06Z")
_Firefly/Serenity_ didn’t have FTL. _Silent Running_ didn’t have FTL. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/53 "2009-03-30T03:18:47Z")
> [@First\_Amongst\_Daves](#): > > …Does _Blade Runner_ have FTL? Or were the replicants and colonists carted around in deep freeze? Neither. The only colonies mentioned were in the solar system. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/54 "2009-03-30T03:23:18Z")
> [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](#): > > Cowboy Bebop probably did not have FTL. It did have something called hyperspace gates with which they traveled from planet to planet, but only inside the Solar system. I always thought those were FTL. They also aren’t that old, and apparently require a gate at each end to work. Even if they can permit FTL travel between systems, there probably hasn’t been any time for a starship with a gate to be sent to another system. Assuming they CAN build a starship at all. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/55 "2009-03-30T03:36:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Lightray pre-empted me: > Quote: > The only other sci-fi property I can think of without artificial grav was “2001”. Which also didn’t have FTL > > One of the best, if not the best, sci-fi movie ever and no FTL. Also, Alien and its sequels seemed to be slower than light, although not sure about that. If you’re looking for movies, rather than TV, there have been plenty of them without FTL, many of them pretty good. A partial listing: \*\*2001 2010 Destination Moon Operation Moonbase Conquest of Space Countdown It! The Terror from Beyond Space Fifty Million Miles to Earth First Men in the Moon First Spaceship on Venus Robinson Crusoe on Mars\*\* (at least the Earth Ship scenes. Camn’t speak for the alien ships) **The Lost Missile** (probably) There have also been plenty of lesser movies without FTL, mostly from the 50s and 60s f going to the moon, Mars, or other planets: \*\*Red Planet Mars Angry Red Planet Rocketship XM Journey to the Seventh Planet Catwomen on the Moon Queen of Outer Space\*\* and so on. ---
**Author:** ![First\_Amongst\_Daves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@First\_Amongst\_Daves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/First_Amongst_Daves)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/56 "2009-03-30T03:42:33Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Neither. The only colonies mentioned were in the solar system. Doesn’t Roy Batty’s soliloquy include a reference to being in a star cluster somewhere? Ah, here we go: > [@](#): > > I’ve seen things you people wouldn’t believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the darkness at Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain. Time to die. Sounds vaguely extra-solar system. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/57 "2009-03-30T04:45:37Z")
> [@First\_Amongst\_Daves](#): > > Doesn’t Roy Batty’s soliloquy include a reference to being in a star cluster somewhere? > > Ah, here we go: > > Sounds vaguely extra-solar system. His “species” is a military ideal as a standard issue shockk troop replicant. He is a termnator style mildroid, but more subtle with the newly finessed human emotemodule like a stormtrooper clone, as regards genre. It is well within reason that he had a collective or shared archetpical concsious implant with his model prototype. He had a 4 year lifespan… no baby, no teen, just adult issued. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/58 "2009-03-30T04:50:26Z")
It’s pretty hasrd to believe that the events of **Bladerunner** happen inside the solar system. Batty’s soliloquy is one data point. The very idea of “the offworld colonies” 9when no one ever refers to any sort of special gear or atmosphere, or gravity differences) reinforces that, and I seem to recall the book mentioning it. But it’s all pretty much moot – nothing in the story has anything to do with space travel, aside from the Replicants having been elsewhere. Certainly you can write SF set in the future based on Earth with no space travel at all, but that’s not really germane to the thread, I think. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/59 "2009-03-30T04:57:53Z")
Blade runner in the sense that I am referring to Roy Batty and movie purpose, was plotwise and psychologically all about memory implants. It was a nextgen robot proven and gone off reservation, not unlike UFO’s. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694/60 "2009-08-05T01:33:53Z")
Re: _Blade Runner_ > [@alphaboi867](#): > > Neither. The only colonies mentioned were in the solar system. But what about the ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-good-sf-space-series-be-done-without-ftl/490694.md?page=4)