# Could a Human/Chimp Pairing Produce Offspring? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 23, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106 "2003-05-23T20:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ltfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@ltfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ltfire)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106/21 "2003-05-23T23:31:08Z")
What are the odds that Michael Jackson tried it with Bubbles? ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106/22 "2003-05-23T23:38:18Z")
šŸ˜• Chimp sperm + human egg or human sperm + chimp egg, or does it make any difference? Physical size advantage would indicate a human mother, I think. Whatā€™s the norm for mules? Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106/23 "2003-05-23T23:51:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Colibri \* > \*\*That could be of some interest, but Iā€™m not sure it would prove anything. > > Although we may be closer to chimps genetically than either of us are to gorillas, chimps and gorillas are _structurally and morphologically_ much more similar to each other. Humans proportionately have much longer legs, shorter arms, and of course much larger craniums than either. > > It has been suggested that these differences are generated by mutations to the genes that regulate development (as opposed to those that govern enzymes or structural proteins). For example, our legs develop at a much more rapid rate than those of apes, thus resulting in their hypertrophy. > > If this is the case, then a chimp-human hybrid embryo could easily experience a conflict in developmental rates produced by the two sets of genes that could be lethal, whereas these rates would not be so mismatched, and thus not fatal, for a chimp-gorilla hybrid. > > There is also the matter that chimps and gorillas have the same chromosome number, while we have one fewer, though this might not cause developmental problems. \*\* Yes, very good points. With the known hybrids out there\* would you say that humans and chimps lie outside the range of developmental incomatibilities? Also, I think that if chimps and gorillas could not produce offspring itā€™d be a very good indication that humans could not either. It sure would come awefully close to answering the question w/o any of the ethical quanderies. And itā€™s hard for me imagine that some bioligist somewhere hasnā€™t done some sureptitious experimenting late at night with a chimp ovum and human sperm. \*horse/donkey; tiger/lion; sheep/goat; camel/alpaca ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106/24 "2003-05-23T23:53:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mangeorge \* > \*\*šŸ˜• > Chimp sperm + human egg or human sperm + chimp egg, or does it make any difference? Physical size advantage would indicate a human mother, I think. > Whatā€™s the norm for mules? > Peace, > mangeorge \*\* IIRC the norm is horse mother. When itā€™s the other way around, itā€™s called a hiney. And, BTW, there are a few rare instances when mules **are** furtile. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106/25 "2003-05-23T23:54:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mangeorge \* > \*\*šŸ˜• > Chimp sperm + human egg or human sperm + chimp egg, or does it make any difference? Physical size advantage would indicate a human mother, I think. > Whatā€™s the norm for mules? > Peace, > mangeorge \*\* The sex of the parents can make a great deal of difference. A mule is the offspring of a male donkey and a female horse. It has the size of a horse, but looks rather more like a donkey. The reciprocal cross, male horse to female donkey, is known as a _hinny_, and is smaller and more horselike. Hinnies are rarely produced intentionally, since they do not have the characteristics such a strength that make mules desireable. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106/26 "2003-05-24T01:13:29Z")
Also, in most other animals the convention is that you call the hybrid by a combo of the father + mother, with the fatherā€™s contribution coming first. Liger= Lion father + tiger mother Tigon= Tiger father + lion mother [check this out](http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/tigons.html) Yet another example of how men get the credit, I guess. I assume that the mule/hinny names predate this convention. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106/27 "2003-05-24T01:20:21Z")
Ah, the obvious chauvinism on this board. Everyone assumes a guy would do a female chimp. How do we know Jane wasnā€™t doing Cheetah when Tarzan was out swinging from trees? Would gestation times affect the viability of the offspring? Chimps gestate about 8-8.5 months, Bonobos about 7.5? More seriously, how distant are tigers from lions? They can produce offspring & itā€™s not that uncommon for the resulting Ligers or Tigons to be fertile. ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106/28 "2003-05-24T01:35:30Z")
**A thread where chimps evolved from MEN?** Hee hee! Stop throwing stuff! Ow! ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106/29 "2003-05-24T05:46:06Z")
Well, [hereā€™s](http://www.greenapple.com/~jorp/amzanim/crossesa.htm) a page listing quite a few types of hybridsā€¦The [ā€œChimeraā€](http://www.greenapple.com/~jorp/amzanim/cross08a.htm) section has anā€¦interesting take on the subject, one that someone more knowledgeable of biology might want to do some checking on. You know what the scary thing is about the OP, though? Someoneā€™s tried ā€œitā€ already. You can be sure of it. Over 6,000-odd years of civilization, and the 35 Billion-or-so humans who have ever lived, it _has_ to have happenedā€¦probably not just once, either. Pleasant dreams. =8o ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106/30 "2003-05-24T05:59:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ranchoth \* > \*\*You know what the scary thing is about the OP, though? Someoneā€™s tried ā€œitā€ already. You can be sure of it. Over 6,000-odd years of civilization, and the 35 Billion-or-so humans who have ever lived, it _has_ to have happenedā€¦probably not just once, either. > > Pleasant dreams. =8o \*\* Pleasant dreams yourself, bucko. Of course some freako has tried it somewhere. Just check out the newsgroups šŸ˜ƒ But in the primate world an offspring like what weā€™re discussing would Iā€™m sure be killed immediately. In the human world right up to current times would probably also be killed. Now in the current day, all bets are off. Pleasant dreams yourself!:eek: ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106/31 "2003-05-24T06:20:43Z")
Ok Moderators, gimme a break. Itā€™s Friday. What I meant to say is: Now in the current day, all bets are off. (GW Bush) Pleasant dreams yourself! ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106/32 "2003-05-24T06:24:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pravnik \* > > In short, nah. Donkeys and horses speciated much more recently than the ancestors that led to chimps and humans. Theyā€™re part of the same genus, equus. Humans are the only in the same order as chimps, primates. Humans are the only members of our own genus currently living, genus homo. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Colibri \* > **pravnik** , humans and chimps are close enough genetically that some scientists have proposed we should be in the same genus. By the standards applied to many other organisms, that would be the case. Iā€™d just like to note ( as I think I did last time this discussion came up ) that comparing taxonomic levels _across_ ( rather than within ) groups has minimal zero predictive value for anything. Other than species ( and folks argue that one ), taxons are purely human inventions, hiearchical charts designed to allow us to better study evolutionary processes and understand relationships _within_ groups. There is absolutely NO set definition of genus, family, order etc. - Those designations are arbitrarily ( if systematically ) applied by a specific worker(s) for each individual taxon and there is no requirement that they represent a certain pre-set level of genetic, morphological, or ( ultimately what weā€™re angling for ) evolutionary distance that is equivalent across the entire kingdom Animalia ( let alone the other kingdoms ). At best what we may be moving towards is perhaps a loose consensus on how much molecular divergence taxons in certain broad groupings ( say mammals, or more specifically carnivores, or more specifically felids - with each narrowing you come closer to consensus ) represents what level of taxonomy. But conversly, the farther afield you move from the specific, the less consensus exists. Throw in morphology, behavioral systematics and other data points and the issue becomes more confused and we start getting into arguments over whether weighting of characters is called for and if so how much weight to then give each individual data point. So the upshot is that what defines a genus among horses may bear no relationship whatsoever to what defines a genus among primates. It certainly doesnā€™t have much bearing on, say, what defines arachnid or fungal genera. So while it is probably safe to say that inter-phylum hybrids arenā€™t all that likely šŸ˜‰ ( Iā€™d sure like to see that lion-bryozoan cross šŸ˜› ), cross-generic crosses neednā€™t be anything shocking. Genera, after all, arenā€™t ā€œrealā€ :). Professional biologists get tripped up by this all the time. One of the objections some systematists ( Iā€™m thinking of Jacques Gauthier in particular, hope I donā€™t explain his argument too poorly ) had to Stephen J. Gouldā€™s interesting book Wonderful Life is that Gould played up the large number of phyla represented in the Burgess Shale as being this really incredible display of unmatched diversity. Except the number of phyla really has no bearing on anything - It was just a bunch of critters with odd bauplans that folks arbitrarily assigned into different phyla because they looked so weird. Phyla arenā€™t biologically equivalent, itā€™s just a human-defined, terminal _within group_ rank. So the large number present does not _necessarily_ equal greater diversity than a modern fauna. i.e. a modern marine fauna with say 5 phyla and 500 species is not necessarily less ā€œdiverseā€ in any real biological sense than an ancient fauna of 12 phyla and 500 species. Am I starting to ramble? Did I make any sense? - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106/33 "2003-05-24T06:27:26Z")
That should be ā€œminimal predictive valueā€, not ā€œminimal zero predictive valueā€, which is a nonsense phrase rather than some arcane scientific slang :D. I started to say zero, then decided to back down slightly on that. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![phraser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a88e4f/32.png) [@phraser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phraser)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106/34 "2003-05-24T10:11:58Z")
Goat/sheep intermatings occur, (buck goat over ewe) producing a ā€œgeepā€, but it always dies at about 3 months gestation. Iā€™m not sure why, but Iā€™d be willing to bet that genomic imprinting has something to do with it. Ram over doe goat does not produce an embryo AFAIK. Iā€™m not a geneticist, but what do other more biologically knowlegable people think about genomic imprinting as a reason for why we donā€™t see more hybridisation? ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106/35 "2003-05-24T10:59:42Z")
There might be biochemical markers outside the genome, perhaps in the outer wall of the egg cell or on the head of the sperm, that stop fertilisation taking place- this imprinting idea is interesting- different expressions for a gene if it comes from the father or the mother. hmmm. Another possible reason that otherwise cross-fertile species donā€™t breed is behavior- many of the hybrids detailed on the sites mentioned above have only happened in zoos where different species have been confined together, it seems to me, for the specific (no pun intended) purpose of producing an unnatural coupling. There seem to be some species of ducks that would e cross-fertile but avoid each otherā€™s company. Perhaps it really never has been attemptedā€¦ an adult chimpanzee is a wild and fierce beast, and you are welcome to try. * * * Sci-fi worldbuilding at [http://www.orionsarm.com/main.html](http://www.orionsarm.com/main.html) [story](http://www.orionsarm.com/stories/Betrayals_on_Nova_Terra.html) ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106/36 "2003-05-24T13:37:54Z")
I used to WORK for a gorilla-human hybrid! Dumbest SOB you ever metā€¦hairy too! Of course, he could have been a surviving NEANDERTHAL! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106/37 "2003-05-24T13:46:48Z")
The chimera concept offers an interesting alternative to inter-species hybridization. IIRC, it has been done with rats and mice. Eberacum hit on a good point about the biochemical process between sperm and ovum that can sometimes be a barrier to interspecies mating. Iā€™d think that this could be overcome in a laboratory setting. Iā€™m still amazed that no one has tried the chimp/gorilla experiment. As for the chimp/human hybridization, if it were possible I wonder what effect that would have on religion. Would the hybrid have a soul? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106/38 "2003-05-24T16:43:15Z")
Thatā€™s the next set of questions. Soul, citizenship etc. Before I got to those though I wanted to have some discussion of the possibility first. Iā€™m really intrigued by the ethical, theological, and societal implications of such a ā€¦uhā€¦ being. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106/39 "2003-05-24T17:49:47Z")
ā€œI wanted to have some discussion of the possibility first.ā€ Iā€™ve been dogging this question for several years, reading everything I can to figure it out and always come up empty. Good luck! ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106/40 "2003-05-24T20:03:17Z")
Hereā€™s a couple of more links on genetic Chimerasā€¦one of which was a proposed human-mouse ā€œhybrid,ā€ of sorts. [Genetic Mosaics](http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/M/Mosaics.html) [Chimera Conflict](http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20021210/04/) Truly facinatingā€¦I had no idea such a thing could even exist. You learn something new every day. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-chimp-pairing-produce-offspring/177106.md?page=3)