# Could a human level intelligence species evolve in the oceans? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 20, 2014, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754 "2014-02-20T00:53:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754/41 "2014-02-20T17:16:08Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Because the novel problems of salience are very different. Like what? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754/42 "2014-02-20T17:17:42Z")
Please read the posts you respond to. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754/43 "2014-02-20T17:25:58Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Please read the posts you respond to. I did. I did not find any examples of things that could not develop under water. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754/44 "2014-02-20T17:32:06Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > That is one of the biggest leaps of non-logic I’ve ever seen…and I argue regularly with creationists. Yes, that’s right up there with, “If we descended from monkeys, why do monkeys still exist?” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754/45 "2014-02-20T17:46:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I did. I did not find any examples of things that could not develop under water. Clearly you did not. The posts you are responding to posited that whale-like intelligence could not develop on land. The reason being that land animals’s salient problems do not include keeping track in real time of a wide variety of social, predator, and prey actors in a huge volume of space, problems of salience so alien to us that we can scarcely understand what they are. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754/46 "2014-02-20T17:51:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yes, that’s right up there with, “If we descended from monkeys, why do monkeys still exist?” Not at all. The most intelligent creatures in the oceans did not evolve there, but are mammals that took to an aquatic life. Fish don’t have schools. Nyuk nyuk nyuk ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754/47 "2014-02-20T17:56:54Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Clearly you did not. Think again. > [@](#): > > The posts you are responding to posited that whale-like intelligence could not develop on land. The reason being that land animals’s salient problems do not include keeping track in real time of a wide variety of social, predator, and prey actors in a huge volume of space, problems of salience so alien to us that we can scarcely understand what they are. Really? Flying creatures don’t move around in 3 dimensions? Nor do creatures that live in trees? Or, for that matter, creatures that live mostly in 2-D but need to be aware of things in 3-D. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754/48 "2014-02-20T17:57:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Please answer the question in Post #10. I did. The answer to the original question is ‘absolutely not’. Human intelligence could have evolved only in the way it did. That’s why intelligence in animals is rare. It doesn’t usually pay. Being faster, stronger, bigger, more prolific, etc., are the easier traits to acquire. Evolutionarily speaking, acquiring intelligence is not the easiest or best way to be a successful species. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754/49 "2014-02-20T18:17:16Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I did. The answer to the original question is ‘absolutely not’. Human intelligence could have evolved only in the way it did. That’s why intelligence in animals is rare. It doesn’t usually pay. Being faster, stronger, bigger, more prolific, etc., are the easier traits to acquire. Evolutionarily speaking, acquiring intelligence is not the easiest or best way to be a successful species. Maybe you misunderstood. You said: > [@](#): > > But what makes us ‘intelligent’ as we define it includes things that are not possible for sea creatures. Name one thing about our intelligence that cannot exist in the sea. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754/50 "2014-02-20T18:22:14Z")
Questions of animal intelligence regularly devolve into a litmus test of observer bias, personal insecurities, and sweeping statements. I have to admit, however, that claims that humans lacked “human-level intelligence” for the vast majority of human existence are pretty novel. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754/51 "2014-02-20T18:26:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Maybe you misunderstood. You said: > Name one thing about our intelligence that cannot exist in the sea. That was not the question. The question was whether human-like intelligence could \*evolve \*in the ocean. The answer is ‘no’. I have given the reasons why. Human intelligence is basically mammalian, and specifically arboreal, then bipedal primate. Being arboreal and then bipedal allows our forelimbs to be relieved of the chore of bearing weight. It allows hands to develop. The rest follows. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754/52 "2014-02-20T18:27:52Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I have to admit, however, that claims that humans lacked “human-level intelligence” for the vast majority of human existence are pretty novel. Or that illiterate people today aren’t human. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754/53 "2014-02-20T19:12:43Z")
This whole discussion reminds me of the short story [THEY’RE MADE OUT OF MEAT.](http://www.terrybisson.com/page6/page6.html) By some of the logic in this thread, if aliens surveyed Earth a couple million years ago the answer to the question “can this planet evolve an industrial society?” would be “no.” Where are all the smart animals? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754/54 "2014-02-20T19:14:43Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > That was not the question. But that was your answer. > [@](#): > > The question was whether human-like intelligence could \*evolve \*in the ocean. The answer is ‘no’. I have given the reasons why. Human intelligence is basically mammalian, and specifically arboreal, then bipedal primate. Being arboreal and then bipedal allows our forelimbs to be relieved of the chore of bearing weight. It allows hands to develop. The rest follows. What is it about an aquatic environment that would prevent hands from evolving? ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754/55 "2014-02-20T20:17:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But that was your answer. > What is it about an aquatic environment that would prevent hands from evolving? - They didn’t. \* No advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754/56 "2014-02-20T20:43:21Z")
Apparently (if I am remembering this correctly from some lectures several years ago), freshwater fish and saltwater fish remember things differently. If you introduce a food to freshwater fish, once they learn to eat it, they remember it forever. If they don’t see it for a year and then you reintroduce it, they will go straight back to eating it again. Saltwater fish don’t remember a food type for more than a few months. The theory was that the marine environment is so variable, and constantly changing, there is no point for saltwater fish to hold on to memories that might never be relevant again. This is the kind of thing that makes me think that human-like intelligence would not evolve in the oceans. But human-level intelligence is not the same thing as human-like. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754/57 "2014-02-20T20:45:01Z")
> [@Weedy](#): > > Apparently (if I am remembering this correctly from some lectures several years ago), freshwater fish and saltwater fish remember things differently. If you introduce a food to freshwater fish, once they learn to eat it, they remember it forever. If they don’t see it for a year and then you reintroduce it, they will go straight back to eating it again. Saltwater fish don’t remember a food type for more than a few months. The theory was that the marine environment is so variable, and constantly changing, there is no point for saltwater fish to hold on to memories that might never be relevant again. > > This is the kind of thing that makes me think that human-like intelligence would not evolve in the oceans. But human-level intelligence is not the same thing as human-like. How so? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754/58 "2014-02-20T20:52:28Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > T Being arboreal and then bipedal allows our forelimbs to be relieved of the chore of bearing weight. It’s almost as good as being in, say, some sort of weightless environment, where supporting weight is unnecessary. Kind of like, oh, I don’t know, floating in water all of the time. To cut to the chase: “it never evolved” is NOT evidence of “it could never have evolved”. That’s a pathetically weak argument. Evolution is not inevitable; it does not work toward a goal. You don’t have a college freshman’s understanding of evolution or biology. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754/59 "2014-02-20T21:35:09Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > It’s almost as good as being in, say, some sort of weightless environment, where supporting weight is unnecessary. Kind of like, oh, I don’t know, floating in water all of the time. > > To cut to the chase: “it never evolved” is NOT evidence of “it could never have evolved”. That’s a pathetically weak argument. Evolution is not inevitable; it does not work toward a goal. > > You don’t have a college freshman’s understanding of evolution or biology. It didn’t because there was no need for it. Evolution is not goal-directed. Our intelligence is an adaptation to our specific environment. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754/60 "2014-02-21T01:08:12Z")
Evolution cannot detect that there is a “need” for something and go “Ah, ha! It’d be really useful to have a super-duper brain! Let’s build that!” I repeat: your understanding of evolution is severely flawed, as evidenced by all of your posts in this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-human-level-intelligence-species-evolve-in-the-oceans/681754.md?page=4)