# Could a "Lost World" Still Exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 15, 2007, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-lost-world-still-exist/400199 "2007-04-15T11:27:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-lost-world-still-exist/400199/1 "2007-04-15T11:27:24Z")
I’m talking about a remote mountain valley, where now-extinct species of animals still live. Take weird animals like the giant sloth, or the hairy mammoth, or the giant armadillos-all happily living on, while the rest of them exist only as fossiles! Could such a place exist? I mean, biologists were amazed when cocoelecanth fishes(thought to be extinct for 45 million years) were found living off South Africa-or when an Australian botanists found woolemi pines living in a remote valley (none known to exist anywhere else). How big would such a valley have to be? And, could it escape human detection? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-lost-world-still-exist/400199/2 "2007-04-15T13:05:30Z")
If it were possible, it would be more likely on an island. For ancient species to survive, they would have to be totally isolated from the forces that caused them to go extinct in other areas. A valley just isn’t that isolated. For instance, wooly mammoths survived on[Wrangel Island in the Bering Sea until 1700BC](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrangel_Island), the latest known population of mammoths in the world. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-lost-world-still-exist/400199/3 "2007-04-15T13:26:56Z")
I don’t know about that. If you’re talking about sudden discoveries of weird prehistoric things, why is an island necessarily better? It might be better for _known_ things to have survived, but not for discoveries. Every island on the planet is charted and photographed. On the other hand, when I’ve flown over some of those deep, steaming valleys in Papua New Guinea, I got the impression _anything_ could be down there. And the Wollemi Pine mentioned in the OP was found in a valley that is less than two hours drive from downtown Sydney. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-lost-world-still-exist/400199/4 "2007-04-15T13:31:44Z")
There’s no question that currently unknown _species_ will be discovered, some of which may have been thought to be extinct. The likelihood of a Shangri-La or valley with a totally unknown civilization of humans or human-like animals is quite remote. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-lost-world-still-exist/400199/5 "2007-04-15T16:34:24Z")
The biggest limitation on whether “lost” species could exist is the minimum population size that could sustain itself. In general, big animals need more room than small animals, predators need more room than herbivores, and social/herd animals need more room than solitary species. You’re not going to find a population of Tyrannosauri in a 50 square-mile valley. The coelacanth isn’t a good example because it’s ocean dwelling, which means a lot more room to hide in. At this point the only likely discoveries of large land animals will be previously unrecognized species that were “hiding in plain sight”. For example, somewhere in New Guinea there might be “wild pigs” which a naturalist might identify as “Omygod! An actual Porcodontus! Thought to be extinct since the Miocene epoch!” To which the locals would shrug and say “it’s a wild pig”. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-lost-world-still-exist/400199/6 "2007-04-15T17:30:51Z")
[This](http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article343740.ece) is as close to a “lost world” as is likely to be found today. No woolly mammoths or dinos there; about the largest animals were tree kangaroos and anteaters. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-lost-world-still-exist/400199/7 "2007-04-15T19:02:19Z")
There are apparently a number of lakes in Antarctica that have been “hidden” and isolated under the thick ice for hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) of years. Whether they harbor life is unknown, but if they do it would be the most likely possibility I can think of to your ‘hidden valley’ scenario. [Lake Vostok in Antarctica](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vostok) ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-lost-world-still-exist/400199/8 "2007-04-15T20:09:59Z")
There are caves being discovered today with eco-systems isolated formillions of years [link](http://www.smm.org/buzz/blog/the_lost_world_0). Whether there will be much larger stuff than crayfish, I doubt it, but there is more than likely more of thee to be discovered ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-lost-world-still-exist/400199/9 "2007-04-15T20:15:35Z")
I personally wouldn’t rule out anything. All sorts of exotic life forms are being discovered in the depths of the ocean, in the superheated waters at Yellowstone, in caves, and anywhere people go looking for new critters. Being open to discovery is one of the ways to make it happen. Being sure there’s nothing else there will keep people from looking. It is the height of hubris to think we now have a grip on all there is to know. As I seem to recall, an attitude similar to that was present toward the turn of the 20th century, just a few years before Einstein’s Relativity theory was presented. Much has changed since then. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-lost-world-still-exist/400199/10 "2007-04-15T20:20:48Z")
[QUOTE=jimmmy] There are caves being discovered today with eco-systems isolated for millions of years [link](http://www.smm.org/buzz/blog/the_lost_world_0). Whether there will be much larger stuff than crayfish, I doubt it, but there is more than likely more of thee to be discovered [/QUOTE] Millions of years? Do you realize what that means? Once we discover the animals there we’ll be able to make a seafood gumbo with animals that were “extinct” when gumbo was invented! ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-lost-world-still-exist/400199/11 "2007-04-15T20:21:48Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] There’s no question that currently unknown _species_ will be discovered, some of which may have been thought to be extinct. The likelihood of a Shangri-La or valley with a totally unknown civilization of humans or human-like animals is quite remote. [/QUOTE] And any such human civilization would likely be stone age hunter-gatherers. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-lost-world-still-exist/400199/12 "2007-04-15T20:30:24Z")
[QUOTE=Lumpy] For example, somewhere in New Guinea there might be “wild pigs” which a naturalist might identify as “Omygod! An actual Porcodontus! Thought to be extinct since the Miocene epoch!” To which the locals would shrug and say “it’s a wild pig”. [/QUOTE] Something almost exactly like this happened not that long ago. The Chacoan Peccary _Catagonus wagneri_ was first discovered alive by scientists in 1972 in South America, although locals knew it well. As it turned out, the species had first been described from fossil material in 1930 and had been assumed to be extinct. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-lost-world-still-exist/400199/13 "2007-04-15T20:40:25Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I’m talking about a remote mountain valley, where now-extinct species of animals still live. Take weird animals like the giant sloth, or the hairy mammoth, or the giant armadillos-all happily living on, while the rest of them exist only as fossiles! Could such a place exist? Sure. It’s where the Sasquatch, Nellie, and John Galt all hang out together. Only the Scientologists and Amelia Earhart know where it is, but if you stare at a Mollweide projection map of the South Pacific in negative with your eyes unfocused you’ll find it about 1200km WSW of Easter Island. Just look for the island with four grass huts and a guy wearing a bright red shirt. In other words, “Lost Worlds” are unlikely. There are a few remote places in the world that are essentially unoccupied, and even fewer that are rarely visited, but none large enough to sustain a viable ecosystem with large mammals unknown to science. “Lost”–that is, unknown or presumed extinct [“Lazarus”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_taxon)–species, however, are found all the time, even surprisingly large ones, like the [Bermuda Petrel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda_Petrel), [Gilbert’s Potoroo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert%27s_Potoroo), [Giant Muntjac](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_Muntjac), and (possibly) the [Giant Peccary](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_Peccary). I daresay member **Colibri** can write authoritatively on this topic, and we would be fortunate to be privileged with his sagacity on this topic. _[edit]And thus, I see he has.[/edit]_ Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-lost-world-still-exist/400199/14 "2007-04-15T21:27:05Z")
[QUOTE=dtilque] [This](http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article343740.ece) is as close to a “lost world” as is likely to be found today. No woolly mammoths or dinos there; about the largest animals were tree kangaroos and anteaters. [/QUOTE] Both of which have been well known to western science for over a century, and neither of which has ever been presumed to be extinct. As such it’s not actually an example of what the OP wants. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-lost-world-still-exist/400199/15 "2007-04-15T21:35:03Z")
I’m still hoping for a Trilobite or two, _somewhere…_ ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-lost-world-still-exist/400199/16 "2007-04-16T08:01:18Z")
[QUOTE=Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor] I’m still hoping for a Trilobite or two, _somewhere…_ [/QUOTE] That would be really nice, but weren’t they all shallow-water animals? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-lost-world-still-exist/400199/17 "2007-04-16T16:04:34Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m still hoping for a Trilobite or two, somewhere… [Here you go](http://www.globalclassroom.org/hshoe.html). ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-lost-world-still-exist/400199/18 "2007-04-16T16:08:28Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] That would be really nice, but weren’t they all shallow-water animals? [/QUOTE] Some were benthic, or mud-dwellers. In any case, there wouldn’t be anything preventing one from having adapted to deep water over the last 250 million years. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Dave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Great\_Dave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Dave)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-lost-world-still-exist/400199/19 "2007-04-16T19:59:01Z")
How about the old redwood canopy. Diane Rehm had Richard Preston, author of: “The Wild Trees” on this morning. Once you get up into the canopy, there is an ecosystem that is just starting to be unraveled, with “caves”, soil on branches feet deep, pools holding oceanic plankton, etc. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-lost-world-still-exist/400199/20 "2007-04-16T20:04:49Z")
Oh sure. Once you start talking about animals the size of beetles, there could be any number of “lost worlds”. But sorry, “we ain’t going to find no brontos”. I have a faint hope for the Thylacine. ☹ [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-lost-world-still-exist/400199.md?page=2)