# Could a military airplane pilot fly a military helicopter without any prior experience? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 3, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818 "2014-01-03T18:07:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818/61 "2014-01-06T17:00:18Z")
> [@SpyOne](#): > > Last I knew (1980s), that was how the US military did it. Canada too. ---
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818/62 "2014-01-06T18:52:43Z")
> [@SpyOne](#): > > Last I knew (1980s), that was how the US military did it. I guess it depends on the military, I went through Army flight school in 1980 and no one then got any fixed wing time. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818/63 "2014-01-06T20:14:34Z")
> [@rsat3acr](#): > > I guess it depends on the military, I went through Army flight school in 1980 and no one then got any fixed wing time. It’s simply a case of “Needs of the Service.” If they’re fat on fixed wing aviators, they’re not going to train many more. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818/64 "2014-01-06T20:33:00Z")
> [@yoyodyne](#): > > [This is how the OP scenario would look](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXROGj1jXv8). An oldie, but a goodie. And a good illustration of the likely outcome of the scenario set forth in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818/65 "2014-01-06T20:53:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Eh? Assuming the blades are turning, the helicopter should just hover without any control input, no? Torque will cause the body of the helicopter to naturally rotate in the opposite direction of the main rotor. The tail rotor counteracts this, but the pilot has to make adjustments to keep them in equilibrium. That’s what people mean by “unstable”. If the pilot takes his hands and feet off of the controls, the helicopter will spin wildly out of control. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818/66 "2014-01-06T21:23:56Z")
[Stability](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longitudinal_static_stability) > [@](#): > > As any vehicle moves it will be subjected to minor changes in the forces that act on it, and in its speed. > [ul][li]If such a change causes further changes that tend to restore the vehicle to its original speed and orientation, without human or machine input, the vehicle is said to be statically stable. The aircraft has positive stability.[/li][li]If such a change causes further changes that tend to drive the vehicle away from its original speed and orientation, the vehicle is said to be statically unstable. The aircraft has negative stability.[/li][li]If such a change causes no tendency for the vehicle to be restored to its original speed and orientation, and no tendency for the vehicle to be driven away from its original speed and orientation, the vehicle is said to be neutrally stable. The aircraft has zero stability.[/ul][/li] > For a vehicle to possess positive static stability it is not necessary for its speed and orientation to return to exactly the speed and orientation that existed before the minor change that caused the upset. It is sufficient that the speed and orientation do not continue to diverge but undergo at least a small change back towards the original speed and orientation. Most airplanes are statically stable and have positive stability. Helicopters are statically unstable and have negative stability. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818/67 "2014-01-06T23:56:06Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > It’s simply a case of “Needs of the Service.” If they’re fat on fixed wing aviators, they’re not going to train many more. The army doesn’t have any fixed wing as pilots, does it? I thought it could only operate helicopters. ---
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818/68 "2014-01-07T04:04:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The army doesn’t have any fixed wing as pilots, does it? I thought it could only operate helicopters. They have fixed wing pilots and quite a few planes. No fast movers, things like OV-1 and C-12. When I was in all initial entry aviation was rotocraft. Fixed wing transition was usually after several years of flying helicopters. Also Army flight school trained all Air Force helicopter pilots. Don’t know if that is still the case or if they had any fixed wing time prior to flight school. Only ones in my class who did got it while at the Air Force Academy not on active duty. Again all this was 34 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818/69 "2014-01-07T05:20:34Z")
> [@SpyOne](#): > > When I was in high school, roughly 25 years ago, the popular wisdom was that it was impossible to build an autopilot for helicopters. As others have noted, it requires constant minute control inputs, and … have you seen recent attempts at autonomous motorcycles? The one that start to lean one way, the overcorrect, and go a few dozen feet before falling over? Huh. Did people really think it was impossible? One would expect a computer to be better at constant minute inputs, the trick is the math is a bit complex and may use self adjusting coefficients. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818/70 "2014-01-07T13:20:27Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Do modern helicopters not have a computer-stabilized mode? > > It sounds like it would be straightforward to build a flight control system that uses software monitoring the state of the helicopter. You’d fly it in this mode using “dumbed down” flight controls that basically allow you to choose the direction you want to fly in and which way to rotate the bird. In this mode, you would not be permitted to make violent maneuvers that would cause unexpected behavior, and if you did get in such a situation, the control system would take over automatically to bring you back to stable flight. Yeah, my understanding is that modern jet fighters are also completely unstable – in fact, so unstable that it’s impossible to actually fly them manually-- and that the constant tiny adjustments are all done by computer. If we can do it for a jet fighter, why not a helicopter? (Other than maybe that replacement helicopters and pilots are so cheap, compared to jet fighters, that it’s not worth it economically. But it’s basically the same electronics as a Segway, and they are not jet fighter expensive) ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818/71 "2014-01-07T13:59:15Z")
On an episode of How I Met Your Mother Robin was in a helicopter when the pilot passed out. At the end of the episode they showed her landing (both hands firmly grasping the cylic). We’re to believe that she was talked down by someone on the ground. It is my contention that if a non-pilot is flying and the pilot is incapacitated that they are both going to die a violent death. Is this correct? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818/72 "2014-01-07T15:15:24Z")
> [@Laggard](#): > > It is my contention that if a non-pilot is flying and the pilot is incapacitated that they are both going to die a violent death. Is this correct? Probably. If the helicopter is in forward flight instead of hovering, someone _might_ survive the crash. But in general, yes. > [@Quercus](#): > > If we can do it for a jet fighter, why not a helicopter? > > (Other than maybe that replacement helicopters and pilots are so cheap, compared to jet fighters, that it’s not worth it economically. But it’s basically the same electronics as a Segway, and they are not jet fighter expensive) Some helicopters have autopilot. I haven’t heard of ‘auto-hover’, but I’ve never flown (or even flown in) a 7- or 8-figure helicopter. In the ones I’ve flown, the R22 and the 300CB, the closest thing to an auto-anything is the throttle correlator that adjusts the throttle when the collective is raised or lowered. The Robinson R22 Beta II can carry two people, with enough room left over to carry a verbal message. It has a 160 hp Lycoming O-320 engine, derated to 131 hp. Empty weight is 855 pounds, and gross weight is 1,370 pounds. So it can carry 515 pounds – including fuel. Most have the optional 10.9 gallon (65 lb.) fuel tank in addition to the 19.8 gallon (119 lb.) main tank. With 184 pounds of fuel, you have 331 pounds to play with. The ‘standard’ American adult male weighs 170 pounds, so two of them would put an R22 over its maximum takeoff weight. (The R22 Beta has an empty weight of 796 pounds, and the engine is derated to 145 hp; so you have a _little_ more payload.) Let’s assume you have a computer that can completely control a helicopter, and let’s assume it has an installed weight of two pounds. Doable. But where does it get its data? There should be a gyro or three. How does it turn the data into work? You’d need two hydraulic rams to move the main rotor swashplate. The main rotor hydraulics could also move the main rotor blades collectively. Another one would be needed for the anti-torque rotor. There would be a mechanism to work the throttle, too. So how do these rams move? You need hydraulic fluid, a reservoir, a pump, plumbing, controls… You already don’t have enough payload to carry full fuel and two ‘standard’ adult males. A Schweizer 300C has a useful load of 950 pounds, but that’s not really enough for an auto-hover/fly system. Now, these helicopters only cost ⅓ million dollars. Get into the $2 million range (Bell LongRanger) and you can put more goodies on – but you reduce your payload. A $30- to $50 million helicopter is big enough an powerful enough for such a system. (And they typically have hydraulic systems already.) But if you’re experienced enough to fly one, you don’t need it to fly itself. You’re probably IFR certified, and can fly it in IMC. You likely have autopilot for the en route phase. It’s unlikely that there is an untrained person in the other pilot’s seat. So a system as described is not needed in the helicopters that would be able to have them, and they are too heavy and too expensive for helicopters that are usually flown by low-time pilots who are carrying an untrained passenger. ---
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818/73 "2014-01-07T16:16:43Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Huh. Did people really think it was impossible? One would expect a computer to be better at constant minute inputs, the trick is the math is a bit complex and may use self adjusting coefficients. Well, I was told “impossible”. Not as in “we can’t do it yet”, but rather “it can’t be done” (with the accepted limit that in the far future lots of “impossible” things will be possible). As I understood it, the main limit was actually sensors: by the time a sensor realized the helicopter is moving wrong, it is too late to fix that. The idea was that whatever is flying the helicopter needs to be connected to a human inner ear. The same was an issue for r/c helicopters, I believe: by the time you _see_ something going wrong, it is too late to correct it. If you are sitting in the helicopter, you can _feel_ the movement and correct for it much quicker. But my point was that such hurdles were eventually overcome. ---
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818/74 "2014-01-07T16:18:13Z")
> [@Laggard](#): > > On an episode of How I Met Your Mother Robin was in a helicopter when the pilot passed out. At the end of the episode they showed her landing (both hands firmly grasping the cylic). We’re to believe that she was talked down by someone on the ground. > > It is my contention that if a non-pilot is flying and the pilot is incapacitated that they are both going to die a violent death. Is this correct? Well, one can always hope for a survivable crash, … ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818/75 "2014-01-07T16:21:52Z")
> [@SpyOne](#): > > Well, I was told “impossible”. Not as in “we can’t do it yet”, but rather “it can’t be done” (with the accepted limit that in the far future lots of “impossible” things will be possible). > As I understood it, the main limit was actually sensors: by the time a sensor realized the helicopter is moving wrong, it is too late to fix that. The idea was that whatever is flying the helicopter needs to be connected to a human inner ear. > The same was an issue for r/c helicopters, I believe: by the time you _see_ something going wrong, it is too late to correct it. If you are sitting in the helicopter, you can _feel_ the movement and correct for it much quicker. > > But my point was that such hurdles were eventually overcome. Kinda silly, because the sensor you are using involves fluid and little hairs in your ear. You can do a heck of a lot better using other methods. Also, a helicopter pilot can only learn little cues with practice. Software can compute the exact state the helicopters is in (lift, temperature, air pressure, available engine power, angle of the blade and kinetic energy) and predict what a control input is likely to do. Of course, software is hard to test and get right, and if a sensor is broken it may make very poor decisions that crash it. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818/76 "2014-01-07T16:45:24Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Kinda silly, because the sensor you are using involves fluid and little hairs in your ear. You can do a heck of a lot better using other methods. > > Also, a helicopter pilot can only learn little cues with practice. Software can compute the exact state the helicopters is in (lift, temperature, air pressure, available engine power, angle of the blade and kinetic energy) and predict what a control input is likely to do. > > Of course, software is hard to test and get right, and if a sensor is broken it may make very poor decisions that crash it. As mentioned earlier, aerospace engineering has already successfully tackled this particular challenge in every negatively-stable high-performance fly-by-wire warplane ever designed (starting with the F-117 Nighthawk and the F-16 Fighting Falcon). Every single one of those would literally fly into pieces if their flight control software catastrophically crashed, and as far as I now that hasn’t happened. I suspect those systems are at least as reliable as other components, such as jet engines with fan or compressor assemblies that don’t disintegrate into a cloud of shrapnel every time you throttle up. The sensors, actuators, and software are essentially an established technology. It becomes a question of systems integration into a rotorcraft. Just engineering. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818/77 "2014-01-07T16:51:56Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > The Robinson R22 Beta II can carry two people, with enough room left over to carry a verbal message. 😃 Lovely turn of phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818/78 "2014-01-07T17:00:45Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > 😃 Lovely turn of phrase. To be fair, the R22 has under-seat compartments. You could take a date on a picnic – though you mightn’t be able to carry full fuel; and you, that you’re wearing, and anything in the compartment is limited to a total of 250 pounds. The 300CB has a small ‘glovebox’, and that’s it. (There’s an optional cargo compartment that looks like a fuel tank.) Larger, and roomier on the inside; but the R22 actually has more room (such as it is) to carry stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818/79 "2014-01-07T18:01:41Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > To be fair, the R22 has under-seat compartments. You could take a date on a picnic – though you mightn’t be able to carry full fuel; and you, that you’re wearing, and anything in the compartment is limited to a total of 250 pounds. The 300CB has a small ‘glovebox’, and that’s it. (There’s an optional cargo compartment that looks like a fuel tank.) Larger, and roomier on the inside; but the R22 actually has more room (such as it is) to carry stuff. So if you want to have a full fuel load and a decent picnic, you better have a skinny enough date? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818/80 "2014-01-07T18:08:15Z")
‘What you’re wearing’; not ‘that’. :smack: And the 250-pound limit is per seat. With 331 pounds available with full fuel in a Beta II, she doesn’t have to be _skinny_ (as long as you’re not to _un_-skinny). Figure 10 pounds for a lunch and a blanket, 190 pounds of you, and you can have a 130-pound date. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-military-airplane-pilot-fly-a-military-helicopter-without-any-prior-experience/677818.md?page=5)