# Could a modern jet fighter missile track & shoot down a WWII fighter or dive bomber?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-modern-jet-fighter-missile-track-shoot-down-a-wwii-fighter-or-dive-bomber/492798
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [April 12, 2009, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-modern-jet-fighter-missile-track-shoot-down-a-wwii-fighter-or-dive-bomber/492798 "2009-04-12T02:15:46Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2009, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-modern-jet-fighter-missile-track-shoot-down-a-wwii-fighter-or-dive-bomber/492798/1 "2009-04-12T02:15:46Z")
In viewing the thread about the[WWII Stuka dive bomber](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=513785)I wondered if a modern air to air to air heat seeking missile would track & shoot down an older propeller driver fighter plane. I ask because I assume the heat signature is much smaller on these older planes than on a modern fighter jet.
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-modern-jet-fighter-missile-track-shoot-down-a-wwii-fighter-or-dive-bomber/492798/2 "2009-04-12T02:29:02Z")
Very modern heat-seeking missles, such as the more recent versions of Sidewinder, will identify and home in on most anything, even the friction of air against the leading edges of the wings. A Sidewinder from 40 years ago might have had some trouble.
And of course, today’s jet fighers also (mostly, actually) carry radar-guided missiles, which wouldn’t have any trouble at all.
In any event, a Stuka (or any other WWII plane) will have thrown off plenty of heat from its engine - not like a modern jet fighter, but more than enough.
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### Author:  [@Harry1945](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harry1945)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-modern-jet-fighter-missile-track-shoot-down-a-wwii-fighter-or-dive-bomber/492798/3 "2009-04-12T02:38:35Z")
Second-generation Sidewinder missiles from 40 years ago were tested before flight with something that looked like a penlight but had a dark filtered lens so no light showed. It was powered by two AA batteries, and the heat seeking unit could pick it up at a surprising distance.
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### Author:  [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-modern-jet-fighter-missile-track-shoot-down-a-wwii-fighter-or-dive-bomber/492798/4 "2009-04-12T03:11:17Z")
Missiles would work just fine, be they radar, IR or TV guided. I wonder about guns, though.
See, Me-262 pilots (that early Nazi jet fighter) actually had problems dogfighting with other fighting planes because the jets were going so fast compared to prop planes, the German pilot only had a split second shooting window before zooming right past its target. Hence they were employed against bombers, which were much easier targets - they don’t dodge all over the place 🙂
I wonder if modern jets would have similar problems… Of course, WW2 pilots didn’t have any fancy computer assisted gunnery or on-board radar or visual target tracking aids on the HUD.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-modern-jet-fighter-missile-track-shoot-down-a-wwii-fighter-or-dive-bomber/492798/5 "2009-04-12T03:19:46Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> Very modern heat-seeking missles, such as the more recent versions of Sidewinder, will identify and home in on most anything, even the friction of air against the leading edges of the wings. A Sidewinder from 40 years ago might have had some trouble.
My dad once told me that he saw a Sidewinder demonstration. I don’t remember the context or year. As an enlisted man he was Combat Aircrew in AEW Skyraiders, and served aboard _Philippine Sea_ and _Lexington_. He was commissioned in '56, I think, and served aboard CLG-5 _Oklahoma City_ in Communications, and then finished out his career in San Diego at FLEASWTRACENPAC. Given that the Sidewinder is an air-to-air missile, I can only guess that the demonstration was sometime in the '50s.
At any rate, the missile was set up on a stand. Some distance away an officer lit a cigarette and waved it around. The fins on the missile ‘followed’ the cigarette.
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-modern-jet-fighter-missile-track-shoot-down-a-wwii-fighter-or-dive-bomber/492798/6 "2009-04-12T03:23:40Z")
> [@Kobal2](#):
>
> Missiles would work just fine, be they radar, IR or TV guided. I wonder about guns, though.
>
> See, Me-262 pilots (that early Nazi jet fighter) actually had problems dogfighting with other fighting planes because the jets were going so fast compared to prop planes, the German pilot only had a split second shooting window before zooming right past its target. Hence they were employed against bombers, which were much easier targets - they don’t dodge all over the place 🙂
>
> I wonder if modern jets would have similar problems… Of course, WW2 pilots didn’t have any fancy computer assisted gunnery or on-board radar or visual target tracking aids on the HUD.
Me-262s were using slow-firing machine cannons (and later, unguided rockets.)
Today’s jet fighters carry multi-barreled rotary weapons capable of spraying bullets in almost ridiculous quantities at ranges that would have seemed impossible in 1945. And, of course, the jet fighter has highly advanced target assist technology.
Furthermore, your F-15 pilot carving up the Stuka formation can slow down if he wants and fly just as slowly as a pretty quick WWII fighter. If he needs to bug out he can hit the afterburners and run away. One of the reasosns Me-262 pilots had trouble hitting things is that **they always had to be flying fast.** The Me-262 was a jet fighter but not in the sense we understand it today; its huge, primitive engines had high top speed but they accelerated slowly, and the plane was only a bit more maneuverable than a house. If the 262 lost it speed advantage in range of enemy fire it was up the creek.
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### Author:  [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2009, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-modern-jet-fighter-missile-track-shoot-down-a-wwii-fighter-or-dive-bomber/492798/7 "2009-04-12T03:37:07Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> Me-262s were using slow-firing machine cannons (and later, unguided rockets.)
Not so much… the revolver cannon developed for the Me262s (Mauser MG 213)were the genesis of the vast majority of non-Gatling style fighter cannon, including the ADEN and DEFA cannons, and the Mauser BK-27 used on the Eurofighter Typhoon, the JAS Gripen and the Panavia Tornado.
The MG 213 fired about 1000 rounds per minute, but with the advantage of having a much faster initial rate of fire than a gatling, due to the fact that all you have to spin up on a revolver cannon is the cylinders, not the entire barrel.
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### Author:  [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2009, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-modern-jet-fighter-missile-track-shoot-down-a-wwii-fighter-or-dive-bomber/492798/8 "2009-04-12T04:54:59Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> Today’s jet fighters carry multi-barreled rotary weapons capable of spraying bullets in almost ridiculous quantities at ranges that would have seemed impossible in 1945.
At one time, I calculated the recoil from the Gatling gun on the F-16. IIRC, it was something like 25-30,000 pounds. Imagine the effect at the receiving end…
> [@](#):
>
> The Me-262 was a jet fighter but not in the sense we understand it today; its huge, primitive engines had high top speed but they accelerated slowly, and the plane was only a bit more maneuverable than a house.
And this just made my day. 🙂
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### Author:  [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-modern-jet-fighter-missile-track-shoot-down-a-wwii-fighter-or-dive-bomber/492798/9 "2009-04-12T05:19:19Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#):
>
> My dad once told me that he saw a Sidewinder demonstration. I don’t remember the context or year. As an enlisted man he was Combat Aircrew in AEW Skyraiders, and served aboard _Philippine Sea_ and _Lexington_. He was commissioned in '56, I think, and served aboard CLG-5 _Oklahoma City_ in Communications, and then finished out his career in San Diego at FLEASWTRACENPAC. Given that the Sidewinder is an air-to-air missile, I can only guess that the demonstration was sometime in the '50s.
>
> At any rate, the missile was set up on a stand. Some distance away an officer lit a cigarette and waved it around. The fins on the missile ‘followed’ the cigarette.
Heh, that’s impressive allright. Apparently, early versions of the missile commonly locked on the Sun itself, or reflections of it on the ground. Wonder how exactly they managed to tweak that behavior out, while still keeping such a hair-trigger seeking mechanism.
> [@](#):
>
> Furthermore, your F-15 pilot carving up the Stuka formation can slow down if he wants and fly just as slowly as a pretty quick WWII fighter. If he needs to bug out he can hit the afterburners and run away. One of the reasosns Me-262 pilots had trouble hitting things is that they always had to be flying fast. The Me-262 was a jet fighter but not in the sense we understand it today; its huge, primitive engines had high top speed but they accelerated slowly, and the plane was only a bit more maneuverable than a house. If the 262 lost it speed advantage in range of enemy fire it was up the creek.
Ignorance fought twice. Not only did I figure a jet plane would stall at prop plane speeds, but I didn’t know that the Mé-262 was a flying brick. Thanks !
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### Author:  [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2009, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-modern-jet-fighter-missile-track-shoot-down-a-wwii-fighter-or-dive-bomber/492798/10 "2009-04-12T13:04:58Z")
> [@Kobal2](#):
>
> Heh, that’s impressive allright. Apparently, early versions of the missile commonly locked on the Sun itself, or reflections of it on the ground. Wonder how exactly they managed to tweak that behavior out, while still keeping such a hair-trigger seeking mechanism.
They only fought at night. Moonless ones. 🙂
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### Author:  [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2009, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-modern-jet-fighter-missile-track-shoot-down-a-wwii-fighter-or-dive-bomber/492798/11 "2009-04-12T13:09:27Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#):
>
> My dad once told me that he saw a Sidewinder demonstration. I don’t remember the context or year. As an enlisted man he was Combat Aircrew in AEW Skyraiders, and served aboard _Philippine Sea_ and _Lexington_. He was commissioned in '56, I think, and served aboard CLG-5 _Oklahoma City_ in Communications, and then finished out his career in San Diego at FLEASWTRACENPAC. Given that the Sidewinder is an air-to-air missile, I can only guess that the demonstration was sometime in the '50s.
>
> At any rate, the missile was set up on a stand. Some distance away an officer lit a cigarette and waved it around. The fins on the missile ‘followed’ the cigarette.
Heh. Reminds me of that scene in Robocop where the big ambulatory mechanical cop warns the guy to drop the gun, doesn’t notice he did, and tracks him all over the room while the poor sot tries to evade certain death.
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2009, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-modern-jet-fighter-missile-track-shoot-down-a-wwii-fighter-or-dive-bomber/492798/12 "2009-04-12T13:39:19Z")
> [@bump](#):
>
> Not so much… the revolver cannon developed for the Me262s (Mauser MG 213)were the genesis of the vast majority of non-Gatling style fighter cannon, including the ADEN and DEFA cannons, and the Mauser BK-27 used on the Eurofighter Typhoon, the JAS Gripen and the Panavia Tornado.
The MG 213 was never once used in combat. It’s interesting from a historical point of view but, obviously, doesn’t have anything to do with how Me-262s performed. Most 262 models mounted Mk108 machine cannons.
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### Author:  [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-modern-jet-fighter-missile-track-shoot-down-a-wwii-fighter-or-dive-bomber/492798/13 "2009-04-12T16:30:17Z")
Related thread: [F-14 Tomcat vs WWII Zero - In My Humble Opinion - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=274846)
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### Author:  [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-modern-jet-fighter-missile-track-shoot-down-a-wwii-fighter-or-dive-bomber/492798/14 "2009-04-12T16:40:24Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#):
>
> At any rate, the missile was set up on a stand. Some distance away an officer lit a cigarette and waved it around. The fins on the missile ‘followed’ the cigarette.
That is a Darwin Award just waiting to happen, isn’t it?
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-modern-jet-fighter-missile-track-shoot-down-a-wwii-fighter-or-dive-bomber/492798/15 "2009-04-12T16:48:10Z")
> [@Ximenean](#):
>
> That is a Darwin Award just waiting to happen, isn’t it?
One would expect it was a demonstration missile, with the propellant and warhead removed.
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### Author:  [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-modern-jet-fighter-missile-track-shoot-down-a-wwii-fighter-or-dive-bomber/492798/16 "2009-04-12T16:54:03Z")
Another thread that may be of interest: ["The Final Countdown": Tomcats vs. Zeros - Cafe Society - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=421352)
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### Author:  [@Dog80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dog80)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-modern-jet-fighter-missile-track-shoot-down-a-wwii-fighter-or-dive-bomber/492798/17 "2009-04-12T22:59:33Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#):
>
> At any rate, the missile was set up on a stand. Some distance away an officer lit a cigarette and waved it around. The fins on the missile ‘followed’ the cigarette.
Sounds impressive at first but a cigarette at a couple meters away could have more IR output than a jet engine at a few kilometers away.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-modern-jet-fighter-missile-track-shoot-down-a-wwii-fighter-or-dive-bomber/492798/18 "2009-04-12T23:03:31Z")
> [@Dog80](#):
>
> Sounds impressive at first but a cigarette at a couple meters away could have more IR output than a jet engine at a few kilometers away.
Take into account that this was (probably) in the '50s, when heat-seekers were still fairly new. Also, it was likely an orientation demonstration rather than a demonstration of the absolute limits of the technology.
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### Author:  [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-modern-jet-fighter-missile-track-shoot-down-a-wwii-fighter-or-dive-bomber/492798/19 "2009-04-13T01:23:38Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> Furthermore, your F-15 pilot carving up the Stuka formation can slow down if he wants and fly just as slowly as a pretty quick WWII fighter.
Althought it’s not really relevant, I can’t resist pointing out that the reason the snail-speed [Swordfish](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Swordfish) (essentially a “typical” WWI biplane (!) with some modifications) was able to inflict catastrophic damage on the state-of-the-art battleship [Bismarck](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_battleship_Bismarck) (other than luck) was that the Bismarck’s guns panned too quickly to keep the slow-moving Swordfish in their sights.
When the Bismarck’s anti-aircraft guns and system were designed, the assumption was that any attacking plane would have a speed of at least ‘X’ mph, and thus set a lower limit for the AA guns’ tracking speed. So, when the Swordfish attacked with a speed of something less than ‘X’, the Bismarck’s fire control system would always aim the AA guns in front of the plane even when used at its slowest setting.
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### Author:  [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2009, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-modern-jet-fighter-missile-track-shoot-down-a-wwii-fighter-or-dive-bomber/492798/20 "2009-04-13T05:37:32Z")
Many moons ago when I was just a fledgling pilot, I knew some WWII fighter pilots. They said that if they had to stay and fight, they would lose to a good WWI fighter pilot that had a big tree on his side.
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