# Could a plane shoot itself? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 4, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-plane-shoot-itself/675484 "2013-12-04T16:14:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Artemis\_Tardis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@Artemis\_Tardis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Artemis_Tardis)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-plane-shoot-itself/675484/1 "2013-12-04T16:14:58Z")
WW2 bomber planes had some turrets for self-defence just like on this picture: [http://acepilots.com/planes/b25h.jpg](http://acepilots.com/planes/b25h.jpg) I was wondering. did it ever happen to a plane to shoot itself? By that picture it looks like the top turret could easily shoot the plane tails. I know that machine guns behind the propellers were synchronized so they wouldnt shoot the propellers off, but what about the turrets? Would this auto-shooting count as friendly fire? ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-plane-shoot-itself/675484/2 "2013-12-04T16:24:06Z")
WWII planes were designed so that they couldn’t accidentally shoot themselves. You may find this interesting, though. > [@](#): > > The F-11 Tiger is noted for being the first jet aircraft to shoot itself down.[3] On 21 September 1956, during a test firing of its 20 mm (.79 in) cannons, pilot Tom Attridge fired two bursts mid-way through a shallow dive. As the velocity and trajectory of the cannon rounds decayed, they ultimately crossed paths with the Tiger as it continued its descent, disabling it and forcing Attridge to crash land the aircraft; he survived.[4][5] From the wikipedia page here: > **[Grumman F-11 Tiger](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_F-11_Tiger)** > > The Grumman F11F/F-11 Tiger is a supersonic, single-seat carrier-based fighter aircraft designed and produced by the American aircraft manufacturer Grumman. For a time, it held the world altitude record of 76,939 feet (23,451 m), as well as being the first supersonic fighter to be produced by Grumman. > Work on what would become the Tiger commenced in 1952 as a design study, internally designated G-98, to improve the F9F-6/7 Cougar. However, the resulting design produced had little association wit... ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-plane-shoot-itself/675484/3 "2013-12-04T16:24:23Z")
Not quite what you asked but at least one plane has shot itself down before. [http://www.aerofiles.com/tiger-tail.html](http://www.aerofiles.com/tiger-tail.html) \*engineer just quicker on the trigger! ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-plane-shoot-itself/675484/4 "2013-12-04T16:28:37Z")
After a bit of searching I found this for the B-17, which I thought was interesting because the gunner actually intentionally concentrated on areas where the turret would fire and stayed away from areas where it wouldn’t: > [@](#): > > …The gunsight was a frame which had two lines, with one on each end of a box. You turned handles to “frame” an enemy fighter between the lines as it came in. When you had the fighter framed, you shot at him by pushing the firing buttons, which were on top of the handles. I searched mostly to the sides and the tail because there was a lot of blocked-out area up front from the body of the plane and the propellers. The turret had stops that wouldn’t let you fire there. Also, the head-on attacks came too fast for the sight. > > From “Half a Wing, Three Engines and a Prayer, B-17s over Germany” by Brian D. O’neill. Taken from here: [http://www.b17queenofthesky.com/positions/ballgun.php](http://www.b17queenofthesky.com/positions/ballgun.php) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-plane-shoot-itself/675484/5 "2013-12-04T17:46:07Z")
I remember reading once of a pilot who _deliberately_ shot his own plane. IIRC, there was some problem with an under-wing fuel tank that was preventing it from emptying, and the extra (and lopsided) weight would prevent it from landing safely. So he grabbed his sidearm and emptied the tank that way. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-plane-shoot-itself/675484/6 "2013-12-04T17:55:39Z")
[Waist gunners on early B-17’s apparently hit their own wing tips a lot](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:sqxk6WhKKb8J:www.primroseretirement.com/senior-living/%3Fpaged%3D26+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a). Having walked through a B-17, it’s hard to believe they didn’t all the time. The waist gunner mounts were really like someone just said to a fairly handy guy, “Here’s some tie rods and tools - make this gun stick to the plane.” ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-plane-shoot-itself/675484/7 "2013-12-04T18:12:57Z")
In WWI, before they perfected the synchronization gear, they sometimes fired through the propeller anyway, and hoped for the best, or armored the backside of the propeller to deflect bullets which might hit it (Lord only knows in what direction): [![](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Damaged_Sopwith_Baby_Airscrew.jpg) ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Damaged_Sopwith_Baby_Airscrew.jpg) Both solutions obviously introduced considerable risk. ETA: > **[Synchronization gear |](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronization_gear#Unsynchronized_guns_and_the_.22deflector_wedge.22_concept)** > > When the pilots of the British Royal Flying Corps and Royal Naval Air Service arrived in France in 1914, they found themselves equipped with pusher aircraft too underpowered to carry machine guns and still have a chance of overtaking the enemy, and tractor aircraft which were difficult to arm effectively because the propeller was in the way. Among other attempts to get around this—such as firing obliquely past the arc of the propeller, and even efforts, doomed to failure, to synchronize the Lewis... ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-plane-shoot-itself/675484/8 "2013-12-04T18:38:08Z")
There is one famous [incident](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwXxxniIeQs), of course. (video) ---
**Author:** ![JerrySTL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e274bd/32.png) [@JerrySTL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerrySTL)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-plane-shoot-itself/675484/9 "2013-12-04T19:01:44Z")
Aircraft doing strafing runs have been known to be hit by ricochets from their own guns and in some cases shoot themselves down. It’s also possible for an aircraft to bring itself down from a bomb it dropped. That’s why many bombs have parachutes or bladders which expand to slow the bombs down. This is a real issue for aircraft like the B-1, or the old F-111, which can drop a bomb at a very low level. Dropping a nuke would be an even bigger risk. I use to help clean up Melrose Range near Clovis, New Mexico so that the ricochets didn’t happen plus look for dud bombs which didn’t explode. ---
**Author:** ![PSXer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/48db29/32.png) [@PSXer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PSXer)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-plane-shoot-itself/675484/10 "2013-12-04T19:29:15Z")
some older WW1 places could shoot themselves source: Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-plane-shoot-itself/675484/11 "2013-12-04T19:34:35Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > There is one famous [incident](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwXxxniIeQs), of course. (video) First thing I thought of. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-plane-shoot-itself/675484/12 "2013-12-04T20:26:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I remember reading once of a pilot who _deliberately_ shot his own plane. IIRC, there was some problem with an under-wing fuel tank that was preventing it from emptying, and the extra (and lopsided) weight would prevent it from landing safely. So he grabbed his sidearm and emptied the tank that way. [Here you go!](http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/Above--Beyond-Shooting-Up-a-Shooting-Star.html?c=y&story=fullstory) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-plane-shoot-itself/675484/13 "2013-12-04T21:23:05Z")
Yup, **Llama** , that’s the story I was thinking of! ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-a-plane-shoot-itself/675484/14 "2013-12-04T22:48:27Z")
According to the post above B-17s had stops in their turrets to prevent this. But I’d guess that the B-29, since it had electrically driven, remote controlled, and (analog) computer assisted aiming & firing for all its turrets, ‘knowing’ when the gun was aimed at part of the aircraft was probably built-in…