# Could Air Force One roll inverted safely? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 7, 2014, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-air-force-one-roll-inverted-safely/687866 "2014-05-07T03:50:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-air-force-one-roll-inverted-safely/687866/21 "2014-05-07T20:18:09Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > I don’t totally understand Cecil’s reasoning for why a 747 would be any less capable of doing a barrel roll than Tex Johnson’s 707 was. I don’t think he was claiming it was less capable of a barrel roll than a 707, but he did suggest that a vertical loop in a 747 would be trickier than a barrel roll in a 747. > [@GreasyJack](#): > > Like I mentioned above, though, what flight characteristic would make an early 707 capable of barrel roll (which I presume was the “option A” variety) but not a newer generation 747? I’m almost certain the TWR is a lot higher on the 747. Based on empty-weight, it’s a little higher for the 747-8 - 0.57, versus 0.41 for the earliest verion of the 707. Other relevant factors include G limits, max roll rates, and safe max airspeeds, and I don’t know what those are for either aircraft. I don’t claim that a 747 definitively can’t do a barrel roll - only that we should not _assume_ that it can. ---
**Author:** ![ricksummon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ricksummon/32/3333_2.png) [@ricksummon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ricksummon)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-air-force-one-roll-inverted-safely/687866/22 "2014-05-07T20:28:20Z")
Surely we don’t have to test these things in a real 747 — has anyone ever attempted to perform a barrel roll or loop in an official Boeing flight simulator? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-air-force-one-roll-inverted-safely/687866/23 "2014-05-07T20:51:14Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > Anyone ever hear of Bob Hover? Wasn’t he that guy who did all sorts of amazing helicopter aerobatics? [No relation to Bob Hoover, among the (and arguably THE) greatest aerobatic pilots of all time, famous for - among many other exploits - unmatched routines in a Shrike Commander and a P-51.] ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-air-force-one-roll-inverted-safely/687866/24 "2014-05-07T20:58:18Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Cecil: Is it possible to loop or roll a 747? > [Is it possible to loop or roll a 747 jet? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/229/is-it-possible-to-loop-or-roll-a-747-jet) Not among Cecil’s more brilliant columns. Awkward moments include: > [@](#): > > Enough forward speed must be maintained during the roll to compensate for the loss of lift that occurs when, in effect, the wings cease to function. That happens when the wings are perfectly perpendicular to the ground–in the vertical position, they can no longer hold the plane up. Ouch. > [@](#): > > You’d have the problem of lift again, at the moment when the tail is down, but it would be harder to overcome, since the plane must be climbing, not merely maintaining its altitude, at the same time. One way to get a plane to climb is to make it go faster (increasing the speed increases the air pressure under the wings, which is what holds the plane up in the first place). Double ouch. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-air-force-one-roll-inverted-safely/687866/25 "2014-05-07T21:59:47Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > If the president were in an F-14…then certainly. 😉 (AF1 being whatever plane the Pres is on) Not true, it just is whatever air force air vehicle the pres is on. If it is a corporate owned aircraft it’s designation would be Executive 1, if Marine the Marine 1 (even thought this is usually a helicopter) ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-air-force-one-roll-inverted-safely/687866/26 "2014-05-07T22:06:10Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > If it is a corporate owned aircraft it’s designation would be Executive 1 Has this ever happened? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-air-force-one-roll-inverted-safely/687866/27 "2014-05-07T22:18:40Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Has this ever happened? > [@](#): > > President Richard Nixon became the only sitting president to travel on a regularly scheduled commercial airline flight when he flew on a United Airlines DC-10 from Washington Dulles International Airport to Los Angeles International Airport.[2] From [Executive One - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_One#cite_note-onlyflight-2) ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-air-force-one-roll-inverted-safely/687866/28 "2014-05-07T22:31:54Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Not true, it just is whatever air force air vehicle the pres is on. > > If it is a corporate owned aircraft it’s designation would be Executive 1, if Marine the Marine 1 (even thought this is usually a helicopter) There are designations for every branch, including the Coast Guard. They’ve never used Coast Guard One, but they have used Coast Guard Two. (Two for the VP) One interesting case is the [helicopter Nixon](http://www.nixonlibrary.gov/themuseum/helicopter.php) used. It was Army One or Marine One depending on the pilot even though it was the same helicopter. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-air-force-one-roll-inverted-safely/687866/29 "2014-05-08T00:52:44Z")
Is flying a large passenger airplane upside-down, as Denzel Washington’s character does in _Flight_, a plausible response to some emergencies? (I did Search and learn that that film was discussed here at length a year ago, but any comment on the inversion was buried among discussions of other implausibilities.) ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-air-force-one-roll-inverted-safely/687866/30 "2014-05-08T02:38:56Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Not true, it just is whatever air force air vehicle the pres is on. Indeed, if he were on a Navy plane, such as the aforementioned F-14, it would be Navy One. Such was the case [when GW Bush was flown out to an aircraft carrier in 2003.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy_One) ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-air-force-one-roll-inverted-safely/687866/31 "2014-05-08T05:00:28Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Could it do a barrel roll? An Immelman turn? What? I’d like to see if any big jetliner could do a [Lomcevak](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lomcovak) (spelling varies) . . . > [@](#): > > A Lomcovák is a family of extreme aerobatic maneuvers where the aircraft, with almost no forward speed, rotates on chosen axes due to the gyroscopic precession and torque of the rotating propeller. . . . let alone with the President on board. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-air-force-one-roll-inverted-safely/687866/32 "2014-05-08T05:37:39Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > ::: snip ::: > > OK, so lay it out: how would you achieve a barrel roll in a 747 while remaining within the safe flight envelope (g-load, airspeed, etc.)? I wouldn’t. I have no idea what the numbers are. Heck, I prolly could not even start a 747. But … A well executed **barrel roll** puts no strain on the C-150 or the 747. Go read ‘Stick & Rudder’ for great explanations of how to do aircraft maneuvers. > [@](#): > > safe flight envelope Need to be defined for your statement. Doing an acrobatic maneuver in an airplane not certified for acrobatics will not say it is safe to do in the pilots handbook. The FAA frowns on that sort of thing. As to the actual 747 aircraft, it can do a **barrel roll**. I really don’t need to prove anything to you or anyone who says it can’t be done or done safely. Not every pilot can do it in every aircraft. They are not allowed to fly just anything they want. If you are a pilot with any experience with acrobatics or any reasonable flight time & or experience, you would not be asking these questions. You would know the answer. You need to prove that it can’t be done to refute all the information & experience of the industry & the pilots that fly same. Tex did it in a 707. It was not pretty or well executed. If he had tried it again, I would think it would been much better because he would have 100% more experience than anyone else. Plus he has learned much, much, many, many things about that particular airplane. That is called test flying and doing something that the owners of that very expensive aircraft did not want to see attempted. It got him grounded for a while but he thought it was well worth it. That stunt sold many airplanes for Boeing. And they knew it. You can go look at the rules on it in the FAR’s. They can be found on line. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-air-force-one-roll-inverted-safely/687866/34 "2014-05-08T08:00:43Z")
> [@cmdrpiffle](#): > > Lot’s of erroneous info on this thread. As someone else said, yes, any aircraft can be rolled. If done correctly (barrel roll) you could maintain 1 G and as someone said, not even spill your drink. (aileron roll will be a bit different) Attached is a Wiki article on Dynasty 006, a 747-SP that rolled inverted, briefly became supersonic, and recovered over the Pacific Ocean…with a full load of passengers. [China Airlines Flight 006 - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Airlines_Flight_006) Jee-Zus! ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-air-force-one-roll-inverted-safely/687866/35 "2014-05-08T11:49:17Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > If you are a pilot with any experience with acrobatics or any reasonable flight time & or experience, you would not be asking these questions. You would know the answer. > > You need to prove that it can’t be done to refute all the information & experience of the industry & the pilots that fly same. :rolleyes: Fine. I’ll stipulate that a barrel roll can be achieved in a 747. But I have my doubts about a safe recovery (i.e. no crash and no airframe damage) from the speed and attitude that the plane will be in immediately _after_ the completion of said barrel roll. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-air-force-one-roll-inverted-safely/687866/36 "2014-05-08T11:56:03Z")
Lemme put it this way: If someone flies a simulated 747 in MSFS or X-Plane, achieves a barrel roll, and then returns to level/stable flight without exceeding the safe operating parameters (speed, g-load, etc.), then I’ll accept that a real 747 could probably do the same. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-air-force-one-roll-inverted-safely/687866/37 "2014-05-08T17:32:44Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Lemme put it this way: > > If someone flies a simulated 747 in MSFS or X-Plane, achieves a barrel roll, and then returns to level/stable flight without exceeding the safe operating parameters (speed, g-load, etc.), then I’ll accept that a real 747 could probably do the same. LOL, OK by me. Since you won’t accept my & other pilots statements, who’s will you accept? Video only? Or movies? Other large transport aircraft? Why would you think pilots would even try in something so large & expensive and witnessed so they could prove it to you? Need an aeronautical engineer to agree that a 747 could do one? Would you list all the planes that you would need proof of them being able to do a **barrel roll** or any acrobatics. Might as well get this all done at once. How about a Ford Tri Motor? [http://youtu.be/c6dWtDk\_rOI](http://youtu.be/c6dWtDk_rOI) ---
**Author:** ![Bumbershoot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bumbershoot/32/3428_2.png) [@Bumbershoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bumbershoot)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-air-force-one-roll-inverted-safely/687866/38 "2014-05-08T18:13:42Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > I’d like to see if any big jetliner could do a [Lomcevak](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lomcovak) (spelling varies) . . . > > > [@](#): > > > > A Lomcovák is a family of extreme aerobatic maneuvers where the aircraft, with almost no forward speed, rotates on chosen axes due to the gyroscopic precession and torque of the rotating propeller. > > . . . let alone with the President on board. Assuming this is not a whoosh, I’ll point out that big jetliners don’t have propellers. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-air-force-one-roll-inverted-safely/687866/39 "2014-05-09T00:32:55Z")
I spoke to my friend who used to fly 747s for a freight airline. He said that a barrel roll is no problem if correctly executed. A loop is possible, but it’s easy to exceed a safe speed in the pullout. He has done both these maneuvers in a simulator (with sim motion disabled). A modest fuel + cargo load is highly recommended. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-air-force-one-roll-inverted-safely/687866.md?page=1)