# Could all the bolts of a tire loosen on their own? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 18, 2004, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-all-the-bolts-of-a-tire-loosen-on-their-own/245682 "2004-05-18T00:37:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-all-the-bolts-of-a-tire-loosen-on-their-own/245682/21 "2016-06-27T17:06:32Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Also, standard procedure unless you’re the tire shop - you tighten everything in an alternating pattern (every other nut for an odd number). Then drive around the block and check and tighten again. I thought that this was common knowledge along with “always store all the lug nuts you’ve taken off together inside the hubcap (or some other container) inside the car on the floor so you don’t accidentally kick it/them with your foot”. Sure, that may sound silly, but is it as silly as rooting around through the grass by the shoulder of the road for an hour hoping to find some missing lug nuts? ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-all-the-bolts-of-a-tire-loosen-on-their-own/245682/22 "2016-06-27T17:17:40Z")
[QUOTE=Count BlucherSure, that may sound silly, but is it as silly as rooting around through the grass by the shoulder of the road for an hour hoping to find some missing lug nuts?[/QUOTE] [“Ohhhh Fuuu-uuu-uuu-uuu-uuu-uuu-dge”](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085334) ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-all-the-bolts-of-a-tire-loosen-on-their-own/245682/23 "2016-06-27T17:27:38Z")
I think the vastly more common cause of loose lug nuts is that the person installing the tire failed to properly tighten them. ---
**Author:** ![icbm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@icbm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/icbm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-all-the-bolts-of-a-tire-loosen-on-their-own/245682/24 "2016-06-27T19:00:43Z")
I had trouble with a set of lug nuts self-loosening after the studs and nuts had become contaminated with axle grease. A few rounds of cleaning both sets of threads with brake disc solvent was required to stop it from happening. Getting all of the grease out of the inside threads of the closed-end lug nuts was harder than getting it off the studs. As for the torque indicators, a Canadian courier company uses these on their fleet of trucks: [http://www.truck-drivers-money-saving-tips.com/image-files/xlug-nut-torque-indicators-dsc01773.jpg.pagespeed.ic.nhGTfZwXOv.jpg](http://www.truck-drivers-money-saving-tips.com/image-files/xlug-nut-torque-indicators-dsc01773.jpg.pagespeed.ic.nhGTfZwXOv.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-all-the-bolts-of-a-tire-loosen-on-their-own/245682/25 "2016-06-27T20:45:31Z")
This happens when you use the wrong sized nuts. [http:// [- YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z51HgIouwE)](http:// [- YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z51HgIouwE)) ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-all-the-bolts-of-a-tire-loosen-on-their-own/245682/26 "2016-06-28T01:41:04Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > I think the vastly more common cause of loose lug nuts is that the person installing the tire failed to properly tighten them. There is another possible cause: if the wheel stud has previously been overtorqued to the extent that it has caused the stud to yield but not fail, the stud may not hold preload allowing the lug nuts to work loose under vibratory and flexural loads. This can happen particularly if someone at a wheel shop has reinstalled the nuts using an air impact wrench without the appropriate torque limit setting, and would explain why all nuts on a wheel may be coming loose simulataneously. I’ve never had this happen on an automobile I owned, but I have seen it happen on construction equipment that was improperly serviced. The only safe disposition for this condition is to replace the studs with pristine studs and assure that they are torqued to well less than the yield strength of the stud material (the recommended torque value should develop a preload somewhere between 50% and 75% of the yield point for a ‘reuseable’ fastener). If the lug nuts have lost all preload and are loose such that there is no preload (and therefore the studs are taking all wheel loads in direct shear) the studs should be carefully examined and replaced if they show any sign of deformation whatsoever, as a previously yielded stud can fail catastrophically with little warning. This is more of a case for high strength (\>160 ksi) fasteners with little elongation but it is really better to be safe than sorry, especially with wheel lugs that are [inexpensive](http://www.autozone.com/tire-repair-and-tire-wheel/wheel-bolt-and-stud) and [easy to replace](http://www.familyhandyman.com/automotive/car-maintenance/how-to-replace-a-broken-wheel-stud/view-all). Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-all-the-bolts-of-a-tire-loosen-on-their-own/245682/27 "2016-07-02T02:40:07Z")
> [@sbunny8](#): > > \ > Tires don’t have bolts. They are mounted on rims. The rim and the tire together are called a wheel. The wheel doesn’t have bolts either, although it’s held in place by bolts which are attached to the axle and nuts which are threaded onto the bolts. If the nuts are touching the tire, you have done something seriously wrong. > \ > It’s the nuts that are coming loose, not the bolts. > \ > \ A number of cars do have lug bolts. Among them VW and Volvo. ---
**Author:** ![Myglaren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Myglaren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myglaren)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-all-the-bolts-of-a-tire-loosen-on-their-own/245682/28 "2016-07-02T12:03:30Z")
> [@JacobSwan](#): > > Some cars do have bolts instead of nuts. Citroen I know for certain do, and a Canadian may well drive a French car. They’re a real pain to line up when you’re changing a wheel, especially with 5 bolts rather than 4. My Citroën C5 and the previous one have bolts, as did the Xantia before it. Couldn’t say with regard to the BX, Visa and GS but ISTR they were bolts too. ---
**Author:** ![PoppaSan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/poppasan/32/189_2.png) [@PoppaSan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoppaSan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-all-the-bolts-of-a-tire-loosen-on-their-own/245682/29 "2016-07-02T14:22:23Z")
> [@sbunny8](#): > > \ > Tires don’t have bolts. They are mounted on rims. The rim and the tire together are called a wheel. The wheel doesn’t have **bolts** either, although it’s held in place by **bolts which are attached to the axle and nuts which are threaded onto the bolts. If the nuts are touching the tire, you have done something seriously wrong. > \ > It’s the nuts that are coming loose, not the bolts**. > \ > \ When I worked in a machining shop that finished up hubs for large trucks and trailers, **we never used bolts** on the hubs. We installed **studs**. It was explained to me that bolts require a tool on the head as well as the nut. Studs are knurled and pressed into place. The grip of the knurl biting into the iron keeps them from turning when the nut is installed. Edit: some hubs are aluminum now so the knurl would bite into that also. Probably whatever other material the hub is made of also qualifies. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-all-the-bolts-of-a-tire-loosen-on-their-own/245682/30 "2016-07-02T14:56:31Z")
I had a Ford Bronco II with a left rear wheel that came off more than once. Once when driven on the highway. Once while stopped on the highway after the car started to shudder. They couldn’t find a problem either time. After the first, everyone just assumed the nuts hadn’t been tightened properly. A third time, as I was driving the car felt weird and I heard what sounded like shots. Pulled over and had lost 3 lug nuts. Eventually, after the nuts kept coming loose (I was checking it essentially every day), and after a lot of different attempts to fix it, they eventually put all left hand nuts on that wheel. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-all-the-bolts-of-a-tire-loosen-on-their-own/245682/31 "2016-07-02T17:28:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m just wondering if, in the 12 years since this thread was started, Canadians have stopped putting bolts in their tires. They go on the wheels, guys, not the tires! Just a little pro-tip from your neighbor to the south. 😉 > [@JacobSwan](#): > > Some cars do have bolts instead of nuts. Citroen I know for certain do, and a Canadian may well drive a French car. They’re a real pain to line up when you’re changing a wheel, especially with 5 bolts rather than 4. You missed the joke. It’s not about bolts _versus_ nuts, it’s about putting [metal fasteners in the TIRE](http://www.daftproductions.com/m3/tiredamage2.jpg)S instead of using them to attach the WHEELS. He’s making sport of technically inaccurate phrasing. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-all-the-bolts-of-a-tire-loosen-on-their-own/245682/32 "2016-07-02T17:32:00Z")
> [@PoppaSan](#): > > When I worked in a machining shop that finished up hubs for large trucks and trailers, **we never used bolts** on the hubs. We installed **studs**. It was explained to me that bolts require a tool on the head as well as the nut. Studs are knurled and pressed into place. The grip of the knurl biting into the iron keeps them from turning when the nut is installed. Some automobiles, like the ones that **Rick** lists above are designed to use bolts rather than studs and nuts. The problem with wheel bolts is that they can become problematic if they sieze and the head breaks off, requiring that they then be removed with an extractor or (in an extreme case) drilled out and the hole retapped, which can be a frustrating and laborious job. On the other hand, if a nut siezes on a stud or a stud breaks off, you can just break the nut, remove the stud, and replace it, which takes all of about 20 minutes even for a marginally competent shade tree mechanic such as myself. ( **Rick** could probably do it in ten while holding a cappuchino in one hand and reading the newspaper.) > [@jsgoddess](#): > > I had a Ford Bronco II with a left rear wheel that came off more than once. Once when driven on the highway. Once while stopped on the highway after the car started to shudder. They couldn’t find a problem either time. After the first, everyone just assumed the nuts hadn’t been tightened properly. A third time, as I was driving the car felt weird and I heard what sounded like shots. Pulled over and had lost 3 lug nuts. Eventually, after the nuts kept coming loose (I was checking it essentially every day), and after a lot of different attempts to fix it, they eventually put all left hand nuts on that wheel. This doesn’t really make sense. If the studs on the Bronco were right hand thread (which I believe all production Ford automobiles are) then left hand nuts wouldn’t fit on them; they would bind up even if you could manage to get them started some how. If what you mean is that they replaced the existing studs with studs with a left hand thread, then what fixed your problem is that the new studs were undamaged (shaft not yielded or threads that were too worn and loose to hold torque) rather than that they were left handed, and in fact, putting in left hand threads can inadvertently cause the studs to become damaged when some technician who is unaware of the odd handedness of the stud overtorques them when he believes he is loosening them. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-all-the-bolts-of-a-tire-loosen-on-their-own/245682/33 "2016-07-02T17:54:00Z")
In repsonse to post #20: **Tires don’t have bolts.** True **They are mounted on rims.** Okay. **The rim and the tire together are called a wheel.** Sometimes. However, “rim” and “wheel” can be synonyms for just the metal part. **The wheel doesn’t have bolts either, although it’s held in place by bolts which are attached to the axle and nuts which are threaded onto the bolts.** This is inaccurate. The wheel can be secured by [nuts](https://trays4you.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/14mm-Lug-Nuts.png) which thread onto [studs (not bolts) affixed to the hub](http://www.nicoclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Pic-9.jpg), or by [bolts](https://dcmclassics.com/746-large_default/br-277-lug-bolt-lh-each.jpg) which thread [directly into the hub](http://www.surpluscenter.com/productImages/image.axd/i.1-1133/w.1000/h.1000/HIGH+SPEED+WHEEL+HUB+4+BOLT_L.jpg). **If the nuts are touching the tire, you have done something seriously wrong.** For sure! **It’s the nuts that are coming loose, not the bolts.** Unless it uses lug bolts instead of lug nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-all-the-bolts-of-a-tire-loosen-on-their-own/245682/34 "2016-07-02T17:59:22Z")
> [@PoppaSan](#): > > When I worked in a machining shop that finished up hubs for large trucks and trailers, **we never used bolts** on the hubs. We installed **studs**. It was explained to me that bolts require a tool on the head as well as the nut. Studs are knurled and pressed into place. The grip of the knurl biting into the iron keeps them from turning when the nut is installed. You’re talking about [bolts with nuts](http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/nut-bolt-11030475.jpg), which I’ve never seen used to secure wheels on automotive designs. Whole different animal from lug bolts which thread into the hub (see my post #33 above). Apples and oranges. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-all-the-bolts-of-a-tire-loosen-on-their-own/245682/35 "2016-07-02T18:03:49Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > On the other hand, if a nut siezes on a stud or a stud breaks off, you can just break the nut, remove the stud, and replace it, which takes all of about 20 minutes even for a marginally competent shade tree mechanic such as myself. True on many designs, but some require significant disassembly to get the access needed to replace the stud. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-all-the-bolts-of-a-tire-loosen-on-their-own/245682/36 "2016-07-02T18:08:02Z")
Some general info: note that lug nuts and lug bolts (i.e., those used to retain automotive wheels) are not ordinary hardware-store type fasteners (such as those shown in the link in my post #34 above). They are specially shaped to mate with the wheels. See illustrations in the links in my post #33 above. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-all-the-bolts-of-a-tire-loosen-on-their-own/245682/37 "2016-07-02T18:11:00Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > True on many designs, but some require significant disassembly to get the access needed to replace the stud. Fair enough, but still better than trying to remove a bolt from which you have just twisted off the hex head. That’s usually the point at which I wish for a disintegrator ray and a large glass of Glenmorangie. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-all-the-bolts-of-a-tire-loosen-on-their-own/245682/38 "2016-07-02T20:28:39Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > This doesn’t really make sense. If the studs on the Bronco were right hand thread (which I believe all production Ford automobiles are) then left hand nuts wouldn’t fit on them; they would bind up even if you could manage to get them started some how. If what you mean is that they replaced the existing studs with studs with a left hand thread, then what fixed your problem is that the new studs were undamaged (shaft not yielded or threads that were too worn and loose to hold torque) rather than that they were left handed, and in fact, putting in left hand threads can inadvertently cause the studs to become damaged when some technician who is unaware of the odd handedness of the stud overtorques them when he believes he is loosening them. > > Stranger Yes, they replaced all of the things they needed to replace in order to use left hand nuts. And no, it never caused a problem. I had the car for 6 more years. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-all-the-bolts-of-a-tire-loosen-on-their-own/245682/39 "2016-07-02T20:52:25Z")
I just saw a Reddit post that described a wheel falling off a trailer. Start here: [Making the Denver Omelette - Album on Imgur](http://imgur.com/a/WfWAv) Then, click at the bottom to load all the photos and search the page for ‘lug.’ My first car (1968 Plymouth) has [some reverse threaded lug nuts/studs](http://moparmax.com/columns/magnante/v_5-1.html) which i thought was sort of neat. The lugs were stamped with an L. For all those adding smug comments that tires don’t have bolts, be advised that they can indeed. It is pretty common in the drag racing community since, without them, the starting torque easily exceeds the hold of the tire bead. See [here](http://www.dragzine.com/features/interviews/drag-tire-tech-tips-with-mickey-thompson/). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-all-the-bolts-of-a-tire-loosen-on-their-own/245682.md?page=1)