# Could alligators released into the wilds of Vermont push out indigneous species? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 23, 2004, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-alligators-released-into-the-wilds-of-vermont-push-out-indigneous-species/270793 "2004-10-23T18:41:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2004, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-alligators-released-into-the-wilds-of-vermont-push-out-indigneous-species/270793/1 "2004-10-23T18:41:24Z")
The head of Vermont’s Fish and Wildlife Dept. is concerned that aliigators brought into Vermont as pets, may escape and breed in the wild, pushing out indigenous species. I had no idea they were so hardy! [Go 1/3 of the way down page for video - VT Cracks Down on Exotic Pets](http://www.boston.com/news/necn/New_England/) > [@](#): > > Animal experts say exotic pets are becoming more and more common, but they’re not always legal in every state. In Vermont, wildlife officials are cracking down. NECN’s Kyla Cullinane has details. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-alligators-released-into-the-wilds-of-vermont-push-out-indigneous-species/270793/2 "2004-10-23T18:58:50Z")
I’d think that they wouldn’t survive the winter. Gators are cold-blooded, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2004, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-alligators-released-into-the-wilds-of-vermont-push-out-indigneous-species/270793/3 "2004-10-23T18:59:30Z")
Alligators (and caimans, the “pet store alligators”) require a means of wintering where they can keep above the freezing point – very difficult in Northern winters. But it **is** possible – all they need is a “microclimate” – a small area where temperatures do not drop below what they can endure. (Crocodilians have **very** limited body temperature control – better than typical poikilothermic creatures like amphibians, snakes, and reptiles (which estivate) but nowhere near the capacities of birds and mammals in this regard.) There was a feral caiman at Sandy Pond, a lagoon off Lake Ontario on the Jefferson-Oswego County border, for several years, wintering over in a warm-water area there. I observed him (her?) several times over a 3-4 year period when walking the nature preserve along the shore there. Either predators or a colder-than-normal winter seems to have done him in, though. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-alligators-released-into-the-wilds-of-vermont-push-out-indigneous-species/270793/4 "2004-10-23T19:08:18Z")
I watched the linked video clip. I think maybe this is a case of some slick editing…the F+G officer is not quoted as saying alligators could potentially squeeze out native species although the reporter implies that he did. He might just be talking about the rationale for the law prohibiting exotic creatures in general…he cites zebra mussels as an example. **Polycarp** that is an interesting example. I had no idea a caiman could survive a winter in such a cold location. There is a difference of course between one animal surviving a few winters in a local warm spot vs. a population of an exotic species spreading throughout the state. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-alligators-released-into-the-wilds-of-vermont-push-out-indigneous-species/270793/5 "2004-10-23T19:24:38Z")
And I thought all the alligators were living in the NYC sewers! Don’t laugh though…it is entirely possible! ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2004, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-alligators-released-into-the-wilds-of-vermont-push-out-indigneous-species/270793/6 "2004-10-23T19:29:00Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > And I thought all the alligators were living in the NYC sewers! Don’t laugh though…it is entirely possible! Don’t know if you’ve seen this column (it’s a very old one) where Cecil addresses that issue: [http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2\_339.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_339.html) He implies it may have been true at one time. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2004, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-alligators-released-into-the-wilds-of-vermont-push-out-indigneous-species/270793/7 "2004-10-23T19:51:01Z")
Wouldn’t the cold weather make feral gators and such a lot more dangerous, not to native wildlife but to kids and pets? I mean, “warm microclimate” describes under my house pretty well. I would expect that cold winters would bring feral toothy things closer to human habitation. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-alligators-released-into-the-wilds-of-vermont-push-out-indigneous-species/270793/8 "2004-10-23T20:10:32Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > Wouldn’t the cold weather make feral gators and such a lot more dangerous, not to native wildlife but to kids and pets? I mean, “warm microclimate” describes under my house pretty well. I would expect that cold winters would bring feral toothy things closer to human habitation. I see you are posting from South Carolina. I daresay that for many if not most Vermonters “under my house” = basement closed off from the outside. The winters get darn cold up there. I do see your point though. ---
**Author:** ![sangfroid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@sangfroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sangfroid)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2004, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-alligators-released-into-the-wilds-of-vermont-push-out-indigneous-species/270793/9 "2004-10-24T00:07:05Z")
:dubious: I live about thirty minutes from the Canadian border, if I take the highway. The man in question, one Mike Priestley, of Alburg, VT., lives ON the border of Canada, at the tip of the Champlain islands. Last winter, we had almost a week of night time temps in the -20 to -30 range. One night was -35 (F). Maybe an Arctic Caiman (hey, is that an oxymoron…?) could survive, but drive out native species? Not likely. The AP article in our local rag stated that the Game Warden(s) gave the reason as “concern over the spread of [non-native] disease(s)”. Priestley had moved here from North Carolina with his ‘pets’, and was bringing them to local schools for educational purposes, according to the AP article. (sorry, tried to find a link, no dice). Seems like a decent enough fellow, from the interview anyway, but I think he’s due to lose his exotic pets. Quote from the AP article “We don’t issue permits to people to keep alligators as pets” in the state of Vermont. Col. Robert Rooks, Senior Game Warden. Personally, I think this has more to do with people who own exotics for amusement only, then discard them when they are tired of dealing with them. Sadly, it happens all the time. I don’t disagree with limiting exotics unless there is a sound reason for having them, including educational purposes. Perhaps Priestley can work that angle. And many non-natives, like zebra mussels, lamprey, Eurasian milfoil and many others are destructive once established. Seems like a sound policy to me. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2004, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-alligators-released-into-the-wilds-of-vermont-push-out-indigneous-species/270793/10 "2004-10-24T01:06:24Z")
Nuclear power plant cooling ponds can be quite nice habitats for alligators, or ANY cooling pond even from another style power plant. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-alligators-released-into-the-wilds-of-vermont-push-out-indigneous-species/270793/11 "2004-10-24T01:31:56Z")
> [@Laughing Lagomorph](#): > > I see you are posting from South Carolina. I daresay that for many if not most Vermonters “under my house” = basement closed off from the outside. The winters get darn cold up there. I do see your point though. Oh, whoops - you’re right, I totally forgot that Northern houses had basements. I’ve never even been in a basement that wasn’t open to daylight (on a slope). Still, there’s other places made by human habitation that might be appealing to a reptile; we have enough trouble keeping feral cats out of our garage, and I can’t imagine what we’d do if they were great big toothy alligators. Same thing we do now, probably: “Git! You! Git! Damn it!” ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2004, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-alligators-released-into-the-wilds-of-vermont-push-out-indigneous-species/270793/12 "2004-10-24T01:47:27Z")
> [@sangfroid](#): > > :…I don’t disagree with limiting exotics unless there is a sound reason for having them, including educational purposes. Perhaps Priestley can work that angle. … Yeah, I was thinking that too. It seems worth a shot, especially if he is already doing educational stuff as is apparently the case. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2004, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-alligators-released-into-the-wilds-of-vermont-push-out-indigneous-species/270793/13 "2004-10-24T02:31:30Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > There was a feral caiman at Sandy Pond, a lagoon off **Lake Ontario** on the Jefferson-Oswego County border, for several years, wintering over in a warm-water area there. I observed him (her?) several times over a 3-4 year period when walking the nature preserve along the shore there. Either predators or a colder-than-normal winter seems to have done him in, though. _[bolding mine - S.]_ :eek: I’ll be more careful when I go to the beach! ---
**Author:** ![dogbutler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dogbutler/32/428_2.png) [@dogbutler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dogbutler)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2004, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-alligators-released-into-the-wilds-of-vermont-push-out-indigneous-species/270793/14 "2004-10-24T02:40:46Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > There was a feral caiman at Sandy Pond, a lagoon off Lake Ontario on the Jefferson-Oswego County border, for several years, wintering over in a warm-water area there. I observed him (her?) several times over a 3-4 year period when walking the nature preserve along the shore there. Either predators or a colder-than-normal winter seems to have done him in, though. So [this](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0139414/) is based on a true story? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-alligators-released-into-the-wilds-of-vermont-push-out-indigneous-species/270793/15 "2004-10-24T02:59:46Z")
> [@dogbutler](#): > > So [this](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0139414/) is based on a true story? > > :eek: ROFL! First, Lake Placid the movie had as little to do with Lake Placid the real-life town as Mayberry did with Mount Airy (maybe less; at least Andy caricatured some real characters). “My” caiman was less than a yard/meter total length – I suspect the climate didn’t agree with him – and on the opposite side of the Adirondacks, to boot. (What I omitted saying in the previous post is that there are a couple of warm-water springs feeding part of Sandy Pond – though no local geothermal stuff heating them; no idea why they are warm – and they provide local areas of ice free, above-freezing water. (Also makes for interesting swimming.) However, Lake Champlain does have a local “lake monster” legend, FWIW.