# Could an adult human male win in a hand to hand fight with an adult male baboon? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 26, 2004, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640 "2004-12-26T04:03:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640/41 "2004-12-27T22:03:28Z")
> [@Valgard](#): > > If a man bites a baboon does he wind up with a mouthful of rhesus pieces? Stop! You’re killin’ me! 😃😃😃😃😃 ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640/42 "2004-12-27T22:04:09Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > As a follow-up question, what’s the most dangerous animal that any human has killed barehanded? I recall hearing a story a few years back about a man who survived being mauled by a tiger by forcing his arm down its throat until it choked to death. Can’t find anything on it now, however. Pretty gutsy if true. ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640/43 "2004-12-28T02:34:17Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Stop! You’re killin’ me! > > 😃😃😃😃😃 Thank you! I’ll be here all week! Showtimes every hour, on the hour. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640/44 "2004-12-28T07:03:17Z")
A kick might be effective if you could actually land it. As I recall, kicking (leg) speed is about 1/3 of punching (arm) speed. I suspect a baboon’s reflexes are such that a human would be lucky to get a punch in and it would be miraculous for him to get a kick in. Baboons are made for this sort of fight, and they’re fierce. Humans are not made for this sort of fight – less strength, no teeth to speak of, no claws. Humans prevail by planning, using tools and weapons, and controlling the environment. The stated situation here precludes the human’s advantages while favoring the baboon’s. I still say no contest, one shredded human coming up. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640/45 "2004-12-28T20:21:57Z")
**Gary T** touched on one of the disadvantages for the human. In fighting we rely on planning, etc, and that our opponent will do the same, to some extent at least. that slows us. Your average baboon isn’t into that at all, so he isn’t going to react as we would (instinctively)expect. He’ll simply see a vunerable target and attack. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640/46 "2004-12-28T21:32:27Z")
> [@Gary T](#): > > A kick might be effective if you could actually land it. As I recall, kicking (leg) speed is about 1/3 of punching (arm) speed. I suspect a baboon’s reflexes are such that a human would be lucky to get a punch in and it would be miraculous for him to get a kick in. > > Baboons are made for this sort of fight, and they’re fierce. Humans are not made for this sort of fight – less strength, no teeth to speak of, no claws. Humans prevail by planning, using tools and weapons, and controlling the environment. The stated situation here precludes the human’s advantages while favoring the baboon’s. I still say no contest, one shredded human coming up. Even if the human is well-trained for this fight? I’d see the following strategies being possibilities: -Pain holds -Bone breaking or joint breaking (e.g., if the baboon lashes out with a claw, step to the outside of it, grab the arm, and bend backwards) -Bluffing -Stomping on feet -Sacrificing (i.e., give the baboon one arm to chew on, then use the other arm to strike it in a vulnerable spot). Obviously some schmoe like myself won’t stand a chance. But it seems likely to me that someone who’s well trained in unarmed combat might be able to stand a chance. I mean, heck, if the hand-down-the-throat maneuver worked on a tiger, might it not work on a baboon? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640/47 "2004-12-28T22:56:39Z")
I’m well trained in unarmed combat (black belt in Karate), and I don’t think any of that would work against a Baboon. Pain holds? Animals don’t perceive pain the same way we do. Punch it in a vulnerable spot? There are no vulnerable spots, in the sense of their being a place you can hit that will disable the creature physically. Perhaps if you could gouge out its eyes, but that’s unlikely. Tell you what - since the Baboon has big teetch and a snout designed to get those teeth into action, let’s arm the human with some similar weapons. Give the human say, two claw hammers. Now he might have a chance if he’s really fast. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640/48 "2004-12-28T23:32:54Z")
Give me that S&W 50 over on that other thread. 😉 Better yet, I won’t go where I’m not welcome. In the vincinity of psychotic baboons, for example. Has there ever been a more meaningful thread, like pitting different “style” human fighters against each other? Yeah, mangeorge. That would be _really_ meaningful. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640/49 "2004-12-29T15:04:47Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Pain holds? Animals don’t perceive pain the same way we do. Huh? In what sense is this true? They’ve got the same sorts of nerves we’ve got, the same pain receptors in the brain; animals respond to pain in fashins analogous to how humans respond. Do you mean they don’t react the way we do? That’s true: an animal is less likely to tolerate pain than a human, I’d think, given that it can’t rationalize the pain away. But maybe an animal fighting for its life would be better at ignoring the pain; I dunno. Why do you think this would be true? [quotePunch it in a vulnerable spot? There are no vulnerable spots, in the sense of their being a place you can hit that will disable the creature physically.[/quote] Sure there are: joints, clavicle, trachea. Break an arm, and it won’t be using the arm. Break the clavicle, and it won’t be using either arm. Break the trachea, and it can’t breathe. I don’t know whether a groin kick would have any effect. Again, I’m not talking about something that your average schmoe could manage; I’m talking about folks who are at the top of the sort of unarmed combat. If someone can manage to choke a tiger to death unarmed, I’d figure someone could come out on top versus a baboon. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Sean\_Factotum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sean\_Factotum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sean_Factotum)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640/50 "2004-12-29T16:28:40Z")
Well, my dad tells a story that happened in the late Fifties. He was working in West Virginia with a man who later became a fairly famous professional wrestler. And he was a pretty big guy in his youth, and still is from what I hear. Strong, like ox is strong, as they say in the old country. This wrestler, B, got into a cage match with an orangutan. If you won, you got fifty dollars. If you lost, the owner of the ape kept your ten dollar or so entrance fee. The way the game was ran, the ape could fight however it pleased, but the human had to pick whether he was going to box or wrestle, and stick with that choice throughout the match. The guys on his crew (including my dad) ponied up the entry fee, B chose to wrestle, and entered the cage. The orang climbed to the top of the cage, let loose a mighty monkey yell, and jumped down onto B. He grabbed the orang, broke its hold, got it in a headlock, and started to take it down to the floor for a pin. The orang’s owner stuck a broom handle through the bars, and broke B’s hold. B didn’t like this, but what could he do? The orang had already scampered up to the top of the cage. The orang, hanging from the ceiling of the cage, yelled, and jumped on B again. This time, B broke its hold, and put him in a full-nelson. He started taking the ape down, and again the owner broke up the clinch with the broom handle. B was really pissed at this point. So when the orang did its jump from the top of the cage a third time (after the requisite monkey yell, of course,) B leaned back and threw the strongest punch he could at the orang. Punched him right in the jaw, and knocked out the poor primate. So we have one B, strong like ox is strong and mad as hornets get mad, scratches covering his chest and back from the nails and teeth of the orang, standing over the unconscious orang. The crowd went wild - apparently no man had ever taken down this Kong before in the long, glorious history of northeastern West Virginia roadside attractions. But this story doesn’t have a happy ending. Poor B, despite his best efforts and obvious superhuman strength, had to forfeit the match. The owner wouldn’t pay up, because B switched from wrestling to boxing in the middle of the fight. Lost on a technicality, he did. Now, like I said, this happened before my mom and dad married, some five or six years before I was born. So I don’t have first hand knowledge of this, and would have thought it was just a story my dad told, except for one incident that happened when I was about six or seven. My dad and I were in a hardware store, and we ran into B there. This was about 1970, and B was well known in my hometown (and indeed, even across the country) by then. When my dad saw him, he went up to B and said, “Hey,you look like a guy I once saw beat up an orangutan.” B laughed, asked how my dad had been over the years, and gave us some tickets to an upcoming wrestling match. But he didn’t deny it, and I vaguely remember B and my dad talking about it that day. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640/51 "2004-12-29T16:40:22Z")
> [@Sean Factotum](#): > > But this story doesn’t have a happy ending. Poor B, despite his best efforts and obvious superhuman strength, had to forfeit the match. The owner wouldn’t pay up, because B switched from wrestling to boxing in the middle of the fight. Lost on a technicality, he did. Um, I’m confused. It’s okay to prevent B from wrestling by interfering with the “match” and breaking all of his legitimate wrestling holds, but not okay to respond by using a legitimate boxing punch? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640/52 "2004-12-29T16:45:18Z")
“Look, pally, you saw what I did to your orangutan. Now pay up or it’s your turn, and we’ll be usin’ the ‘broom handle rule’ in our little skirmish as well!” ---
**Author:** ![Sean\_Factotum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sean\_Factotum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sean_Factotum)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640/53 "2004-12-29T17:09:25Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > Um, I’m confused. It’s okay to prevent B from wrestling by interfering with the “match” and breaking all of his legitimate wrestling holds, but not okay to respond by using a legitimate boxing punch? Huh? Yeah, that’s what got B pissed off. What, you thought something like this would conform to Queensbury Rules? As I understand it, they went back a day or two later with some troopers, but the man and primate had skipped town. Guess the orangutan decided that he’d had enough of the roadside semi-carny life. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640/54 "2004-12-29T19:50:50Z")
**Left Hand of Dorkness** : Animals experience pain, but they don’t react to it like humans. Pain holds in humans work because the human is capable of understanding why he’s feeling the pain, and understanding what he needs to do to make it stop. Pain in an animal is just as likely to enrage it, because it won’t understand what’s happening. Humans also have the capacity to project into the future, to understand that the pain will continue and to empathize with how that will feel, and that’s a big part of our ‘experience’ of pain. Animals don’t have that, other than at an instinctual level. As for breaking limbs - I don’t think you have any idea how hard that is to do. For my black belt test I had to have 2 X 2 pieces of timber broken over my arms and legs. It wasn’t that big a deal, but we were giving a demonstration one time and my Sensei attempted this, not knowing that the wood in question had been left outside for a year or so and was as hard as rock. We smashed his arms half a dozen times with it and it wouldn’t break. Finally we took it outside, leaned it against a wall, and kicked it. It split down the middle, but didn’t break. The point is, we were essentially hitting him with a bat, over and over again, and we didn’t break a limb. It takes a huge amount of force to break bones in animals that are young and conditioned. As for snapping tendons, yes, that can be done. But I recall reading that tendons in apes aren’t attached the same way they are in humans - they are attached at angles that maximize strength, while ours are attached in closer to the joint to give us more speed/dexterity. That’s why apes can hang from trees all day long and chin themselves up over and over again without becoming fatigued. And a trachea on a human is pretty exposed. Is it that way in a baboon? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640/55 "2004-12-29T20:09:49Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > **Left Hand of Dorkness** : Animals experience pain, but they don’t react to it like humans. Pain holds in humans work because the human is capable of understanding why he’s feeling the pain, and understanding what he needs to do to make it stop. Pain in an animal is just as likely to enrage it, because it won’t understand what’s happening. I’m not at all sure this is true. Animals can be pretty savvy about basic things, and the source of pain can be one of them. If you were right, choke collars and electric fences wouldn’t be very effective. > [@](#): > > Humans also have the capacity to project into the future, to understand that the pain will continue and to empathize with how that will feel, and that’s a big part of our ‘experience’ of pain. Animals don’t have that, other than at an instinctual level. Again, I think you’re wrong. Animals are likely to generalize more, though. When we used electrical fences with the goats ona farm I worked on, the farmer would touch each goat’s nose to the fence when she was still a kid, so that she’d learn to fear it. An adult goat has too much fur to get much of a shock from a fence, so their value was primarily psychological. > [@](#): > > As for breaking limbs - I don’t think you have any idea how hard that is to do. For my black belt test I had to have 2 X 2 pieces of timber broken over my arms and legs. It wasn’t that big a deal, but we were giving a demonstration one time and my Sensei attempted this, not knowing that the wood in question had been left outside for a year or so and was as hard as rock. We smashed his arms half a dozen times with it and it wouldn’t break. Finally we took it outside, leaned it against a wall, and kicked it. It split down the middle, but didn’t break. The point is, we were essentially hitting him with a bat, over and over again, and we didn’t break a limb. It takes a huge amount of force to break bones in animals that are young and conditioned. Hmm…interesting. My understanding was that an overextended elbow was relatively easy to snap, and that clavicles are quite fragile. > [@](#): > > As for snapping tendons, yes, that can be done. But I recall reading that tendons in apes aren’t attached the same way they are in humans - they are attached at angles that maximize strength, while ours are attached in closer to the joint to give us more speed/dexterity. That’s why apes can hang from trees all day long and chin themselves up over and over again without becoming fatigued. I’m not quite sure what you mean by this; by “tendons” are you referring to joints? > [@](#): > > And a trachea on a human is pretty exposed. Is it that way in a baboon? I dunno–[it doesn’t look like it’s too buried](http://www.letus.org/bmatters/images/baboon01.jpg), but I’m no expert. At any rate, we now have a story of a guy with a reasonable amount of training who outfought a trained orangutan. Unless that story is false, it seems to come very close to settling the issue: orangutans are [significantly larger](http://www.orangutan.org/facts/orangutanfacts.php#quick) than baboons. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640/56 "2004-12-29T20:13:57Z")
> [@Sean Factotum](#): > > Yeah, that’s what got B pissed off. What, you thought something like this would conform to Queensbury Rules? > As I understand it, they went back a day or two later with some troopers, but the man and primate had skipped town. Guess the orangutan decided that he’d had enough of the roadside semi-carny life. No, I guess I just figured that it wasn’t comforming to Queenbury Rules, and that B, being a huge hulking destructive beast, might beat the shit out of the carny and take what was rightfully owed to him. Maybe there were other circumstances preventing it though. The story just doesn’t hang together completely though, large chunks of it don’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Sean\_Factotum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sean\_Factotum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sean_Factotum)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640/57 "2004-12-30T14:51:08Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > No, I guess I just figured that it wasn’t comforming to Queenbury Rules, and that B, being a huge hulking destructive beast, might beat the shit out of the carny and take what was rightfully owed to him. Maybe there were other circumstances preventing it though. The story just doesn’t hang together completely though, large chunks of it don’t make sense. I don’t disagree with your last point there. But the story hasn’t changed over the years on any point that I can find, and my dad isn’t known for making up stuff just to impress or amuse people, even his kids. I wouldn’t have believed it myself, except for the time we ran into B. I believe the gist of the story, if not the specifics of every point. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640/58 "2004-12-30T16:46:02Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > …orangutans are [significantly larger](http://www.orangutan.org/facts/orangutanfacts.php#quick) than baboons. But orangutans aren’t fighters. Baboons are, and they’re good at it. Orangs are strong, but baboons are strong, fast, and vicious. From herehere : _… the standard modus operandi of baboons, who rip out the victim’s intestines with their teeth while exercising a fearsome grip with their “hands”._ From [here](http://http://www.wildlifesafari.info/baboon_chacma.html): _…They have a very powerful build with large canines, which can be used in vicious fights, which sometimes end in death._ And from [here](http://www.nature.ca/notebooks/english/baboon.htm) : \* Their principal enemy is the leopard, but even leopards will avoid an encounter with the larger, adult males who are courageous and vicious adversaries. \* I suspect that the expert martial artist/street fighter/killer commando is going to have a baboon ripping his face/neck/guts to shreds before he lands a blow. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640/59 "2004-12-30T16:49:15Z")
Messed that up. First link: [http://www.wavescape.co.za/bot\_bar/surf\_story/Robabel1\_Rocky.htm](http://www.wavescape.co.za/bot_bar/surf_story/Robabel1_Rocky.htm) Second link: [http://www.wildlifesafari.info/baboon\_chacma.html](http://www.wildlifesafari.info/baboon_chacma.html) Third link works OK. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640/60 "2004-12-30T17:08:36Z")
Possibly so, possibly so, except that we have a previous account of a person killing a tiger barehanded. I suspect that tigers are more fearsome opponents than baboons. I also think that the importance of bluffing is being overlooked. A human may be able to control the fight by feints and lures. This is, of course, all completely academic; I rather suspect that this fight to the death ain’t happening any time soon. I’m just sayin’ my money would be on the professional human fighter, not on the ape. Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-adult-human-male-win-in-a-hand-to-hand-fight-with-an-adult-male-baboon/281640.md?page=4)