# Could an alliance of third parties be the way to push proportional representation, etc.? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 28, 2013, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593 "2013-01-28T06:07:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593/61 "2013-01-29T01:37:27Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Once again, I’m asking you how it will look to people who are not ideologues of your stripe. If it is seen as a way to prevent minorities from gaining the power that seems within their grasp, it will fail even if it is a good idea. It’s not a good idea, IMO, but that’s irrelevant. You’re a utopian who sees only a total change of the system as a way to cure it. I see utopians as people who doom us to the status quo. They call for total change as step one. And that insures that nothing in politics ever gets done at all. PR doesn’t disenfranchise minorities. Our current system does. PR solves that problem. Electing people by creating arbitrary, easily manipulated legislative districts makes no sense. I want to be represented as an individual voter, not as a resident of the 8th district. I don’t necessarily share anything special with my fellow 8th district voters, and I might even be a minority put there because someone needed to keep me out of an adjoining one, lest my vote actually count. In a district-based, winner take all system, potentially half of all votes are “wasted” - not represented by anyone. Not in a PR system. It appears to me that you had no idea what PR was until now, and haven’t bothered to listen much or find out how it works and how prevalent it is in the world, and have declared it “utopian” and unworkable based on your first impression. You’d be better off learning about it first. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593/62 "2013-01-29T01:39:18Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Let me state this a clearer way that I should have thought of before: my standard saying that a political party is full of kooks is a qualitative judgment, not a quantitative one. There is no de minimis percentage beyond which a political party is legitimized in my view. > > So no, we do not agree on this at all. Okay. Well, in that case, your opinion is irrelevant to this discussion about representative democracy. You are not going to be appointed the czar of which party is kooky and therefore can’t be on the ballot. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593/63 "2013-01-29T01:41:58Z")
Here’s a list of countries using PR today, with details: > **[Proportional representation | List of countries using proportional representation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation#List_of_countries_using_proportional_representation)** > > Eighty-five countries in the world use a proportional electoral system to fill a nationally elected legislative body. > The table below lists those countries and gives information on the specific PR system that is in use. > Detailed information on electoral systems applying to the first chamber of the legislature is maintained by the ACE Electoral Knowledge Network. Countries using PR as part of a mixed-member majoritarian (e.g. parallel voting) system are not included. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593/64 "2013-01-29T02:14:54Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > PR is hardly a “utopian scheme.” It’s simply a different way of electing a legislature. Versions of it are used by about 50 or more countries today. Just stop this stuff please, and discuss it. Despite what you and BrainGlutton think, many people are familiar with PR. My degree in Political Science is now over 40 years old. Familiarity does not equate with approval of it for the United States. I am not interested in discussing it, because I have long ago considered it and dismissed it. But don’t let me stop you from discussing it. Loudly. The louder you get, the happier I am. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593/65 "2013-01-29T02:21:33Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Despite what you and BrainGlutton think, many people are familiar with PR. My degree in Political Science is now over 40 years old. Familiarity does not equate with approval of it for the United States. > > I am not interested in discussing it, because I have long ago considered it and dismissed it. But don’t let me stop you from discussing it. Loudly. The louder you get, the happier I am. Good. We’ll discuss it and you can dismiss it as worthless and leave us alone. My degree in political science isn’t as old as yours, so I guess I have more time to talk about it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593/66 "2013-01-29T02:24:54Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Once again, I am getting it from my real world appraisal of the realities of the 2013 political world. The 2013 world didn’t exist until 2013. More information, please. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593/67 "2013-01-29T02:26:18Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I am not interested in discussing it . . . What else are you in this thread for but to discuss it?! ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593/68 "2013-01-29T02:29:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What else are you in this thread for but to discuss it?! Oh, come on, discussing alternative voting schemes that are in wide use in other countries is just “utopian.” Such a discussion would never work. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593/69 "2013-01-29T02:50:22Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If you want proportional representation, you get it one of two ways: strengthen parties to create slates, or create large multimember districts. I think both systems suck. You think the GOP and Dems are weaker now than they would be in a PR system? My point is that we need to strengthen _competition._ One way this could work is acknowledging that the two big parties are coalitions, and letting voters explicitly vote for subfactions. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That is known as [demarchy,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demarchy) or selection by [sortition.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition) It certainly produces a true representative sample of the general public. The downside is that if we elected Congress that way, we would not have a Congress, we would have a focus group; it would be incompetent to do anything but vote up-or-down on proposals from the executive branch. Government is not jury duty; anything as complicated as government should be left to career professionals. Career professionals would be civil service and foreign service, not the amateurs in legislatures. Hm, maybe we _should_ go to a system where legislatures are more clearly seen as the clowns they often are. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593/70 "2013-01-29T03:35:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What else are you in this thread for but to discuss it?! To point and laugh, of course. That’s what the Dope is for. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Oh, come on, discussing alternative voting schemes that are in wide use in other countries is just “utopian.” Such a discussion would never work. :rolleyes: Right. And how’s that working out for you so far? ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593/71 "2013-01-29T04:01:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > (The similar [approval voting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approval_voting) or Condorcet system, where you just vote “yes” or “no” as to each of several candidates, does offer certain abstruse-to-all-but-polysci-nerds-even-worse-than-I advantages over IRV. But, I’m thinking IRV is better for America, because, 1) it’s an easier sell – the chances to rank-order the candidates is more psychologically satisfying to the voter; and 2) the results, how the voters rank-order the candidates, produces information of greater civic value.) What about range voting? Approval voting is equivalent to range voting with the only options being 0 or 1, so why not allow, say, ranking candidates on a scale 1-10 (and whoever’s score sums highest wins)? I **believe** this satisfies the Condorcet criterion, but also allows for a great deal of “civic data”, in that you can tabulate things like the mode score for a given candidate, the standard deviation on the ratings, the median score etc. Eta: Nevermind, it’s only Condorcet compliant is everybody votes strategically, still, I think it’s a fairly good system. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593/72 "2013-01-29T04:02:25Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > What about range voting? Approval voting is equivalent to range voting with the only options being 0 or 1, so why not allow, say, ranking candidates on a scale 1-10 (and whoever’s score sums highest wins)? I **believe** this satisfies the Condorcet criterion, but also allows for a great deal of “civic data”, in that you can tabulate things like the mode score for a given candidate, the standard deviation on the ratings, the median score etc. Like I said, I think the chance to rank-order the candidates is more psychologically satisfying to the voter. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593/73 "2013-01-29T04:06:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Like I said, I think the chance to rank-order the candidates is more psychologically satisfying to the voter. I don’t know, I agree that approval voting may prove unsatisfying, but range voting 1-10 allows people to say “I’m voting you a 3 because YOU’RE A DOODY HEAD, CANDIDATE. And my pal Good Candidate gets a 10 so THERE.” I think that could prove pretty satisfying. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593/74 "2013-01-29T04:12:53Z")
So, what about the chances of a trans-third-partisan alliance? Could Greens and Libertarians and Constitution-Partiers and Working-Family-Partiers and America Firsters and all the flavors of Socialists stand each other enough to work together for a shared goal? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593/75 "2013-01-29T04:19:40Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > To point and laugh, of course. That’s what the Dope is for. Boy, you really wasted your time getting a polysci degree. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Right. And how’s that working out for you so far? We’re exchanging information, slowly becoming acquainted with others’ points of view on the issues, and perhaps will soon develop some new insights. **That’s** what most of the Dope is for. Depart from me into the Everlasting BBQ Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593/76 "2013-01-29T04:32:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So, what about the chances of a trans-third-partisan alliance? Could Greens and Libertarians and Constitution-Partiers and Working-Family-Partiers and America Firsters and all the flavors of Socialists stand each other enough to work together for a shared goal? I doubt it, and if they did, they’d end up nigh indistinguishable from the Dems/Pubs. It’s a vicious cycle, nobody votes for them because they’re crazy, and they’re allowed to be crazy because nobody votes for them. Becoming a reasonable conglomerate party would mesh their views and move them to a weird amalgam more representative of the general population… like the Dems/Pubs, and whichever they end up closer to will end up losing due to the spoiler effect. I don’t see them banding together pushing proportional representation, it will just cause a bunch of people’s favorite parties to lose horribly and lead to “SEE!? I TOLD you third parties were a bad idea!” At the very best the third parties forming a huge coalition will destroy the Dem or Pub party and replace them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593/77 "2013-01-29T04:47:32Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I doubt it, and if they did, they’d end up nigh indistinguishable from the Dems/Pubs. It’s a vicious cycle, nobody votes for them because they’re crazy, and they’re allowed to be crazy because nobody votes for them. Becoming a reasonable conglomerate party would mesh their views and move them to a weird amalgam more representative of the general population… like the Dems/Pubs, and whichever they end up closer to will end up losing due to the spoiler effect. Well, not necessarily. Take the Libertarian Party. At present it is dominated by radical libertarianism, which is something very different from (and much crazier than) moderate libertarianism – which is still something very different from the political center-of-gravity of the GOP. Under a PR system, the LP would moderate to appeal to the voters, and would grow significantly larger – and would still offer a meaningful alternative to every other party in the field. As for the “spoiler effect,” that is something PR and IRV circumvent. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593/78 "2013-01-29T04:52:28Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > At the very best the third parties forming a huge coalition will destroy the Dem or Pub party and replace them. I’m talking about a **one-issue** coalition. That’s not the same as the third parties effective merging, which is what you seem to envision. And certainly destroying the Democratic and Republican parties and replacing them is the whole point, but the “coalition” would not do that, each party separately would. Without the pressure of the SMD system to form “big tent” parties to have any hope of success at all, the left wing of the Dems probably would hive off to form a left-progressive or social-democratic party; and the GOP would split into moderate-bizcon and paleocon/theocon and libertarian parties. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593/79 "2013-01-29T04:54:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > As for the “spoiler effect,” that is something PR and IRV circumvent. I think you misunderstand me. My point was that an alliance of third parties would **cause** a spoiler effect, and rather than people saying “hey, third parties aren’t so bad, let’s try this PR thing so they have good representation” they’ll see the spoiler effect in action and say “third parties doomed my candidate, I knew they’d never work. Screw PR!” You could try to slowly explain that PR would allow third parties, but remove the spoiler effect, but I think that by the point you have to do that the people you’re trying to convince probably aren’t listening anymore. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593/80 "2013-01-29T05:02:19Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I think you misunderstand me. My point was that an alliance of third parties would **cause** a spoiler effect, and rather than people saying “hey, third parties aren’t so bad, let’s try this PR thing so they have good representation” they’ll see the spoiler effect in action and say “third parties doomed my candidate, I knew they’d never work. Screw PR!” > > You could try to slowly explain that PR would allow third parties, but remove the spoiler effect, but I think that by the point you have to do that the people you’re trying to convince probably aren’t listening anymore. Well, there’s no such thing as bad publicity. Especially on this particular set of issues. If we can get to the point where the American people are even **talking** about PR and IRV and electoral fusion, for good or for ill – which means they now have some idea what those things are – that will be a major victory by itself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-an-alliance-of-third-parties-be-the-way-to-push-proportional-representation-etc/648593.md?page=5)