# Could and would Trump Sr. pardon Trump Jr. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 11, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001 "2017-07-11T15:00:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/261 "2017-07-13T22:05:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m quite confident that Clinton’s campaign had a generally superior understanding of the law (notwithstanding that Trump’s lawyers are “the best” :rolleyes: ) but I’m equally confident that no one in Clinton’s campaign would have hesitated to accept Machado’s help, or the help of those hypothetical undocumented workers, because such information is manifestly within the First Amendment’s strongest area of protection: politically relevant speech about areas of public concern. Would anyone in Clinton’s campaign have accepted help from someone if it was made manifestly clear that the help was coming via a Russian head prosecutor, and that they were told up front that “This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Ms. Clinton.” Do you think that given this information, no one in Clinton’s campaign would have hesitated to set up a meeting? Because it seems to me that this information about Russian involvement is quite central to whether or not a reasonable person would have accepted “help”. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/262 "2017-07-13T22:15:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And again, whether the info was stolen or not has zero relevance to the law prohibiting foreign assistance to campaigns. The issue of the info being stolen might be relevant to some other criminal violation, of course, but not to the restrictions in 11 CFR § 110.20. I think this is probably true in the end (see Bartnicki and even US v. Stevens), but it would certainly be a fact relevant to the analysis of whether the First Amendment forbids criminalizing the solicitation of this particular thing of value, right? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/263 "2017-07-13T22:17:44Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > This seems like an odd inference. Donald Jr. was, ostensibly, offered information from a senior Russian official, as part of a Russian government effort, involving Clinton’s “dealings” with Russia. I don’t think I would conclude that the information itself was obtained illegally. Why would above-board ‘government-supplied’ information be described as > [@](#): > > This is obviously very high level and sensitive information …? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/264 "2017-07-13T22:19:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > How would this scenario fit into the discussion (From the WaPo, about a year ago): > > > [@](#): > > > > **Clinton launches program to enlist ‘dreamers’ to boost voter turnout in their communities** > > > > Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign announced a new Latino outreach initiative Sunday focused on mobilizing young undocumented immigrants to highlight their risk of deportation if Donald Trump becomes president, with the aim of inspiring others in their communities to vote in November. > [@Bricker](#): > > Well, it’s manifestly using campaign assistance from non-citizens, who are providing a “thing of value” to the campaign. I’d say (initially) that it fits. But I welcome other sets of eyes. You’re on shaky ground in comparing the ‘mobilizing Dreamers to inspire citizens to vote’ situation to the invitation to the “meeting with you [Don Jr.] and the Russian government lawyer” situation: under US law, > [@](#): > > Even though a foreign national cannot make campaign contributions or expenditures (including advances of personal funds), he or she can serve as an uncompensated volunteer for a campaign or political party. [https://transition.fec.gov/pages/brochures/volact.shtml](https://transition.fec.gov/pages/brochures/volact.shtml) So such volunteer activity is _not_ considered to be a “thing of value”. In that, it differs from what was offered to Don Jr. during the meeting with the “Russian government lawyer” he agreed to take, when told that he might receive “very high level and sensitive information” that “would incriminate Hillary” and “would be very useful to your father.” Bricker, as for your questions about § 110.20 (or § 30121 which is what I quoted): it’s true that the US Code with regard to foreign donations makes no explicit reference to the method under which the information that constitutes the donation was acquired. My two points are: the demonstrated intention to receive illegally-obtained information has legal implications (and potentially, associated consequences) beyond § 30121; and the nature of the information being donated might have bearing in the question of the value of the donation. For example, a donation of a list of a state’s counties with numbers of those registered as Republican and Democrat, might have no value because such a list is available for no charge on the Internet. But a donation of a list of election officials, with personally compromising information on each–a document that could only be compiled using hacked data–that donation might have considerable assessed value. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/265 "2017-07-13T22:22:44Z")
Another thing that is puzzling… If indeed Trump is correct, and “anyone would have taken this meeting”, or posters here are correct and this is not a big deal, anyone on Hillaries team would have done the same… Then why the lying from Trump Jr. and associated others with Trump’s campaign team? Why the obfuscation about meeting with Russians? Does anyone think they honestly forgot? It seems to me that they deliberately withheld this information until it was impossible to deny anymore. If there are no problems with meeting with a Russian to discuss things that are " obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump.", then why not simply report that they did this months ago? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/266 "2017-07-13T22:26:46Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Another thing that is puzzling… If indeed Trump is correct, and “anyone would have taken this meeting”, or posters here are correct and this is not a big deal, anyone on Hillaries team would have done the same… > > Then why the lying from Trump Jr. and associated others with Trump’s campaign team? Why the obfuscation about meeting with Russians? Does anyone think they honestly forgot? It seems to me that they deliberately withheld this information until it was impossible to deny anymore. > > If there are no problems with meeting with a Russian to discuss things that are " obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump.", then why not simply report that they did this months ago? That is unanswerable. The only tactic possible is to attempt to divert attention away from the question. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/267 "2017-07-13T22:29:10Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > You’re on shaky ground in comparing the ‘mobilizing Dreamers to inspire citizens to vote’ situation to the invitation to the “meeting with you [Don Jr.] and the Russian government lawyer” situation: under US law, So you don’t think the Dreamers’ volunteering is a “thing of value”? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/268 "2017-07-13T22:33:14Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > You’re on shaky ground in comparing the ‘mobilizing Dreamers to inspire citizens to vote’ situation to the invitation to the “meeting with you [Don Jr.] and the Russian government lawyer” situation: under US law, > > [https://transition.fec.gov/pages/brochures/volact.shtml](https://transition.fec.gov/pages/brochures/volact.shtml) > > So such volunteer activity is _not_ considered to be a “thing of value”. Well, that’s kind of the point. The claim was made that anything Trump got from a foreign national could be a “thing of value”. We figured that some folks might understand the issue better if it was Clinton getting the help rather than Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/269 "2017-07-13T22:34:14Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Why would above-board ‘government-supplied’ information be described as > > …? Because the Russian government likely has “high level” and “sensitive” material and if the Russian government wants to give that to someone then they presumably can without violating any law. If we read the offer to suggest that the information is not being willingly supplied by the government, then I agree that it would be a reasonable inference that the information had been illegally obtained. But the offer suggest (even states) that this is being provided at the direction of a senior government official as part of a government operation. That raises a number of issues, but I 'm not sure why one of them would be the assumption that person providing the information had obtained it illegally. Put it this way: if I met with a government official who was providing me information about government activities at the request of the Attorney General as part of a government program (and I believed these things were true), it would never occur to me that the formation was illegally obtained. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/270 "2017-07-13T22:43:52Z")
By the way, the MSM keep reporting that the information was supposed to come from “the Crown prosecutor” in Russia. There is no such thing as a “Crown prosecutor” and there has not been a “Crown” in Russia for 100 years or so. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/271 "2017-07-13T22:47:52Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So you don’t think the Dreamers’ volunteering is a “thing of value”? What, you ignored the US Federal Election Commission link? It’s not a matter of opinion. It’s official policy: > [@](#): > > An individual may volunteer personal services to a campaign without making a contribution as long as the individual is not compensated by anyone for the services. Volunteer activity is not reportable. > > Foreign national as campaign volunteer: > Although he or she may not make contributions or expenditures (including advances of personal funds), an individual who is a foreign national may participate in campaign activities as an uncompensated volunteer. [FEC | Candidate | Volunteer activity](https://www.fec.gov/help-candidates-and-committees/candidate-taking-receipts/volunteer-activity/) ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/272 "2017-07-13T22:48:07Z")
They’re reporting it because those words were used in the email to Don Junior. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/273 "2017-07-13T22:48:11Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > By the way, the MSM keep reporting that the information was supposed to come from “the Crown prosecutor” in Russia. There is no such thing as a “Crown prosecutor” and there has not been a “Crown” in Russia for 100 years or so. The whole thing is FAKE NEWS!! FAKE NEWS!! Wait, I mean: cite? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/274 "2017-07-13T22:51:56Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > By the way, the MSM keep reporting that the information was supposed to come from “the Crown prosecutor” in Russia. There is no such thing as a “Crown prosecutor” and there has not been a “Crown” in Russia for 100 years or so. It’s irrelevant and immaterial that such a thing doesn’t exist. The point is that Don Jr. was told that the “CP” was offering “to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary” and that this “obviously very high level and sensitive information” would be very useful to Trump. _And acting on that information, Don Jr. agreed to meet_. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/275 "2017-07-13T22:55:43Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > Because the Russian government likely has “high level” and “sensitive” material and if the Russian government wants to give that to someone then they presumably can without violating any law. > > If we read the offer to suggest that the information is not being willingly supplied by the government, then I agree that it would be a reasonable inference that the information had been illegally obtained. But the offer suggest (even states) that this is being provided at the direction of a senior government official as part of a government operation. That raises a number of issues, but I 'm not sure why one of them would be the assumption that person providing the information had obtained it illegally. > > Put it this way: if I met with a government official who was providing me information about government activities at the request of the Attorney General as part of a government program (and I believed these things were true), it would never occur to me that the formation was illegally obtained. You’re far adrift on hypotheticals, here. But I’ll join you on your rickety raft for a moment to ask: what information that “would incriminate Hillary” could the Russian government have obtained legally? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/276 "2017-07-13T22:59:46Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > You’re far adrift on hypotheticals, here. But I’ll join you on your rickety raft for a moment to ask: what information that “would incriminate Hillary” could the Russian government have obtained legally? You (and a lot of others) seem to be stuck on the “hacking” angle. Obviously if they could show money transfers from Russian government (or just Russian non-US citizens) to Hillary’s campaign or to DNC that would “incriminate Hillary” and would be legally obtained information? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/277 "2017-07-13T23:02:18Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > You (and a lot of others) seem to be stuck on the “hacking” angle. > > Obviously if they could show money transfers from Russian government (or just Russian non-US citizens) to Hillary’s campaign or to DNC that would “incriminate Hillary” and would be legally obtained information? Okay, I’ll give you that one. (Funny they didn’t mock up a few. Maybe it’s harder than it sounds.) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/278 "2017-07-14T00:10:45Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > What, you ignored the US Federal Election Commission link? > > It’s not a matter of opinion. It’s official policy: > > [FEC | Candidate | Volunteer activity](https://www.fec.gov/help-candidates-and-committees/candidate-taking-receipts/volunteer-activity/) Oh. So why do you think the Trump campaign violated the law by accepting information volunteered by a non-Citizen? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/279 "2017-07-14T00:18:10Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > By the way, the MSM keep reporting that the information was supposed to come from “the Crown prosecutor” in Russia. There is no such thing as a “Crown prosecutor” and there has not been a “Crown” in Russia for 100 years or so. Have you not read the emails in question? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/280 "2017-07-14T00:23:30Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Have you not read the emails in question? I’m kind of taking a MSM break but when they refer to the email have they been noting that there is no Crown prosecutor in Russia? Perhaps owing to the lack of Crowns? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001.md?page=15)