# Could and would Trump Sr. pardon Trump Jr. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 11, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001 "2017-07-11T15:00:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/401 "2017-07-17T20:59:54Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > On the contrary, I think that a reasonable person would have questioned the source of the information, as well as the motivation of the giver of the information. It was coming from the Russian government for God’s sake! Do they have a reputation for scrupulous honesty? It was coming from Russian government **supposedly about money flowing from Russians to DNC and Hillary**. Look at the bolded part. Read it again. Twice. What in there suggests to you that this information was “stolen” and not just retrieved from some file cabinet where it was stored? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/402 "2017-07-17T21:01:35Z")
One thing sticks in my mental craw: why “shop” it to the Trump Campaign at all? Why not just route it to any of a number of tighty-alt-righty outlets? If the purpose of the plan is to help get Trump elected, what is gained by involving them? Was it supposed to be gratitude? “Here, we gave this to you, remember us!”? But that would mean Putin trusts Trump enough to involve him in a conspiracy. Putin trusts a loose-cannon motor mouth with a secret conspiracy? Here’s my conjecture: the Russians didn’t have an “exclusive”. They stole the info, which means that someone else could have stolen it as well. Maybe stole it better, didn’t leave all the fingerprints the Russians did. So, what the Russians had on tap was more like a “heads-up”, “we got this, but so do these other guys”. What I read suggest that a few (5?) days later, the stuff got out. Penis ensued. But it might have done whether Don the Lesser accepted it or not. There isn’t necessarily a connection. Russians didn’t need secret info to muck about with our elections. The rift between Bernie people and HRC people was right there to be exploited, and they went at it hammer and tong. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/403 "2017-07-17T21:05:13Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Ok, I don’t have expertise. Now tell me more about bank robbery con jobs and how they are similar to how a DC election is run. Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes. It has only been a popular saying for two millenia. It is amazing that people dispute that it is common sense. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/404 "2017-07-17T21:16:04Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Of course it makes a difference politically but not legally, which is all Bricker is addressing. IMHO, Bricker is a little too under impressed with the implications but he is quite aware about how bad it looks. Indeed, I don’t think that politics in general and this case specifically can be reduced to a strictly legalistic binary view of “illegal or not illegal” Of course in the context of this thread (will Trump sr. pardon Trump Jr.), I guess one of the “givens” in the question is that Trump Jr. will NEED a pardon because he was found guilty of a crime, or a pre-emptive pardon if he is on trial for a crime. I’m just a bit of a pain in the ass, and like to point out to the peanut gallery that “legal” does not always mean “did the right thing” or even “won’t pay a political price” ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/405 "2017-07-17T21:16:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > One thing sticks in my mental craw: why “shop” it to the Trump Campaign at all? Why not just route it to any of a number of tighty-alt-righty outlets? If the purpose of the plan is to help get Trump elected, what is gained by involving them? > > Was it supposed to be gratitude? “Here, we gave this to you, remember us!”? But that would mean Putin trusts Trump enough to involve him in a conspiracy. Putin trusts a loose-cannon motor mouth with a secret conspiracy? Putin wouldn’t be harmed by Trump (or a Trump associate) saying ‘Putin gave us this information.’ Putin relishes his global reputation as a badass _Master of Hackers_ and _Interferer with Elections_. Therefore, “trusting Trump” wasn’t an issue for Putin. The point of the emails to Don Jr. was to implicate Don Jr.—and anyone else in the T. campaign that Don Jr. informed about the offer—in improper conduct that had the potential to be found to be a violation of US federal election campaign law. This would give Putin leverage over Don Jr. and anyone else who’d agreed to take the meeting. No part of that requires the actual existence of ‘information that incriminates Hillary’–it requires only that Don Jr. be _promised_ incriminating information (that comes from the Russian government), and that Don Jr. agree to meet for the purpose of receiving it. > [@elucidator](#): > > Here’s my conjecture: the Russians didn’t have an “exclusive”. They stole the info, which means that someone else could have stolen it as well. Maybe stole it better, didn’t leave all the fingerprints the Russians did. So, what the Russians had on tap was more like a “heads-up”, “we got this, but so do these other guys”. > What I read suggest that a few (5?) days later, the stuff got out. Penis ensued. But it might have done whether Don the Lesser accepted it or not. There isn’t necessarily a connection. > **Russians didn’t need secret info to muck about with our elections. The rift between Bernie people and HRC people was right there to be exploited,** and they went at it hammer and tong. This is it. The Russians were going to release DNC emails—interspersed with some invented ones, as is their wont—even if Don Jr. had sent Goldstone and his Russian-Government-Lawyer packing. That Don Jr. eagerly accepted the offer was just a juicy bonus for Putin. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/406 "2017-07-17T21:36:30Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Indeed, I don’t think that politics in general and this case specifically can be reduced to a strictly legalistic binary view of “illegal or not illegal” > > Of course in the context of this thread (will Trump sr. pardon Trump Jr.), I guess one of the “givens” in the question is that Trump Jr. will NEED a pardon because he was found guilty of a crime, or a pre-emptive pardon if he is on trial for a crime. > > I’m just a bit of a pain in the ass, and like to point out to the peanut gallery that “legal” does not always mean “did the right thing” or even “won’t pay a political price” Which is fine. Knock yourself out. But… others might not share your need and take a narrower view that since there about 8 bazillion other threads about Trump to point that out, it’s kind of nice to have one where you can focus on just the legal aspect. Such a poster should not have to defend himself for “not caring enough about the non-legal aspects” of the issue in this thread. Or, having said that there are other, ethical issues involved once or twice, such a poster doesn’t need to revisit that again and again in this thread in order to fend off round of criticism. So, hows about we end the hijack about talking about each other, and get back to the business at hand? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/407 "2017-07-17T21:45:02Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > But I think Junior ( and he’s 39 not 13 quit treating him like an innocent child) was so caught up in the bubble that he not only didn’t think taking the meeting was wrong, he thought it was his righteous duty. I think you’re treating Junior entirely too kindly. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/408 "2017-07-17T21:51:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > One thing sticks in my mental craw: why “shop” it to the Trump Campaign at all? Why not just route it to any of a number of tighty-alt-righty outlets? If the purpose of the plan is to help get Trump elected, what is gained by involving them? > > Was it supposed to be gratitude? “Here, we gave this to you, remember us!”? But that would mean Putin trusts Trump enough to involve him in a conspiracy. Putin trusts a loose-cannon motor mouth with a secret conspiracy? > > Here’s my conjecture: the Russians didn’t have an “exclusive”. They stole the info, which means that someone else could have stolen it as well. Maybe stole it better, didn’t leave all the fingerprints the Russians did. So, what the Russians had on tap was more like a “heads-up”, “we got this, but so do these other guys”. > > What I read suggest that a few (5?) days later, the stuff got out. Penis ensued. But it might have done whether Don the Lesser accepted it or not. There isn’t necessarily a connection. > > Russians didn’t need secret info to muck about with our elections. The rift between Bernie people and HRC people was right there to be exploited, and they went at it hammer and tong. Because the Russians’ objective wasn’t to give the Trump campaign information; it was to make incriminating evidence on the Trump campaign, in order to use it as a lever against possible future election. They knew they wouldn’t get away with it with Hillary’s team, which is indirectly related to why they wanted Trump elected in the first place. And Junior was stupid and avaricious enough to fall for it hook, line, and sinker. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/409 "2017-07-17T22:00:16Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes. > > It has only been a popular saying for two millenia. It is amazing that people dispute that it is common sense. My post did not say that wariness should be tossed out the window, ffs. I just think that refusing to even look at anything shady seems a little naive. But I bow to your many years experience in oppo research. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/410 "2017-07-17T22:26:36Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > It was coming from Russian government **supposedly about money flowing from Russians to DNC and Hillary**. > > Look at the bolded part. Read it again. Twice. What in there suggests to you that this information was “stolen” and not just retrieved from some file cabinet where it was stored? Why would the Russians help Hillary, and then help Trump by giving his campaign the details on how they helped Hillary? So your stance that the information was totally on the up-and-up makes no sense. There’s something fishy about it, somewhere. They can’t want both sides to win. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/411 "2017-07-17T22:37:44Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Why would the Russians help Hillary, and then help Trump by giving his campaign the details on how they helped Hillary? > > So your stance that the information was totally on the up-and-up makes no sense. There’s something fishy about it, somewhere. They can’t want both sides to win. There WAS no information. So there was no “up and up”. What posters in this thread are talking about is the presumption that the supposed information that \*\*Russians \*\*were dangling - about **Russians** sending money to DNC and Hillary - was “stolen”. That presumption would be ludicrous. \*\*Russians \*\*don’t need to steal info from DNC or Hillary about \*\*Russians \*\*sending them money. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/412 "2017-07-17T22:46:40Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > There WAS no information. So there was no “up and up”. What posters in this thread are talking about is the presumption that the supposed information that \*\*Russians \*\*were dangling - about **Russians** sending money to DNC and Hillary - was “stolen”. > > That presumption would be ludicrous. \*\*Russians \*\*don’t need to steal info from DNC or Hillary about \*\*Russians \*\*sending them money. Where are you getting this “allegation” about the Russians sending money to the DNC and Hillary? That’s not part of this incident at all, as far as I can tell. “her dealings with Russia” could be anything. > [@](#): > > The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/413 "2017-07-17T22:51:24Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Where are you getting this “allegation” about the Russians sending money to the DNC and Hillary? That’s not part of this incident at all, as far as I can tell. > > “her dealings with Russia” could be anything. What the Russian lawyer tried to pass during the meeting were some half-baked money-transfer allegations. But if you insist - why would anyone assume that information about “dealings with Russia” that is\*\* coming from Russians\*\* would be “stolen”? Especially since it’s “official documents” coming from (LOL) “Crown prosecutor”? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/414 "2017-07-17T22:52:16Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > That presumption would be ludicrous. \*\*Russians \*\*don’t need to steal info from DNC or Hillary about \*\*Russians \*\*sending them money. Okay, it wouldn’t have to be stolen, they’d just have to be idiots to actually give something like that away. Fortunately for them, they made the offer to an even bigger idiot. Better? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/415 "2017-07-17T22:54:05Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Okay, it wouldn’t have to be stolen, they’d just have to be idiots to actually give something like that away. Fortunately for them, they made the offer to an even bigger idiot. I am glad we put the “stolen” silliness away. Especially since the “stolen” part is what a lot of posters in this thread are basing the supposed “illegality” of the meeting on. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/416 "2017-07-17T22:59:31Z")
People, get over the Crown Prosecutor bullshit. It was Goldstone applying his cultural knowledge (i.e., Brit) to the Russian legal system. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/417 "2017-07-17T23:13:28Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > What the Russian lawyer tried to pass during the meeting were some half-baked money-transfer allegations. So say the lying liars who have consistently lied about everything so far. For some reason, I don’t believe anything they say. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/418 "2017-07-17T23:20:47Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > What the Russian lawyer tried to pass during the meeting were some half-baked money-transfer allegations. > > But if you insist - why would anyone assume that information about “dealings with Russia” that is\*\* coming from Russians\*\* would be “stolen”? Especially since it’s “official documents” coming from (LOL) “Crown prosecutor”? So tell them to go talk to the FBI about how the DNC is committing serious crimes against foreign influence in US elections. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/419 "2017-07-18T00:01:51Z")
What makes me angry about this is what keeps happening. We have Trump Jr. doing something unquestionably wrong. And yet, people who claim to hate Trump, still have to try and come up with excuses. You don’t wait until he offers the excuse, thus giving it some possible validity. If it’s someone you support, this makes sense. You’re trying to support them. But, if you don’t, why do you go out of your way to come up with excuses that they themselves haven’t even offered? It’s actually pretty clear. Russia was offering dirt on Clinton to her electoral opposition. That is illegal, even before discussing email hacks. And, thus, if anyone finds out, you’re in trouble. Russia is also not an ally of the U.S., so they would not offer anything unless there was something in it for them. There is no reason that anyone who isn’t both stupid and corrupt would take the “call.” There is no reason to come up with excuses for them. Unless you actually support them (or are their defense attorney being paid to defend them). We’ve got to stop this habit of coming up with excuses for evil people that allows them to do evil. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/420 "2017-07-18T00:03:25Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > I am glad we put the “stolen” silliness away. You may be just a bit disappointed on that score. The other posters in this thread have not yet shown the wisdom to elect me to speak for them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001.md?page=22)