# Could and would Trump Sr. pardon Trump Jr. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 11, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001 "2017-07-11T15:00:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/501 "2017-07-21T20:19:57Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Voracious curiosity about hypothetical matters and the details of governance has always typified the man. You made me snort my milk. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/502 "2017-07-21T20:20:50Z")
You’re welcome. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/503 "2017-07-22T00:55:49Z")
> [@epolo](#): > > In your opinion, do you think there is enough here to charge someone with a crime (even if it is likely to lose on first amendment grounds)? Or is this just insufficient on its face? > > Ironic if the only thing that keeps these folks out of jail are the same first amendment protections their boss would like to weaken. Oh, there’s no real question that this is sufficient to get a grand jury to return an indictment. The conduct violates the statute. The First Amendment defense is one that would be raised at (or-pre) trial. The fact that the First Amendment is a slam-dunk doesn’t short-circuit the process. I HOPE that prosecutors would decline to bring charges, and indeed I’m pretty sure there’s DoJ policy forbidding it, but the answer to your question is: the charge could be brought. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/504 "2017-07-22T00:57:22Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Suppose what they are offering the campaign is stolen information. Products of hacks, phishing, or whatnot. Is dissemination of stolen information protected speech? Yup. Pentagon Papers. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/505 "2017-07-22T02:19:44Z")
Suggestion that, if Trump pardons his kinfolk (and possibly himself) to save their sorry asses, the pardon itself could be seen as an obstruction of justice, and possibly be prosecutable. [If Trump Pardons, It Could Be a Crime](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/21/opinion/if-trump-pardons-crime-russia.html), Daniel Hemel and Eric Posner, New York Times, July 21, 2017. > [@](#): > > Consistent with the framers’ design, the Supreme Court has interpreted the president’s pardon power broadly. The president can pardon anyone for any crime at any time — even before a suspect has been charged. Congress cannot withdraw presidential pardons, and prosecutors and courts cannot ignore them. > > But could a pardon be a criminal abuse of power? Some would argue that would contradict the founders’ vision of unlimited pardon authority. If a president sold pardons for cash, though, that would violate the federal bribery statute. And if a president can be prosecuted for exchanging pardons for bribes, then it follows that the broad and unreviewable nature of the pardon power does not shield the president from criminal liability for abusing it. > > The Justice Department and the F.B.I. proceeded on this premise in 2001 when they opened an investigation into possible bribery charges arising out of President Bill Clinton’s pardon of the fugitive financier Marc Rich, whose former wife had donated $450,000 to Clinton’s presidential library. The investigation lasted until 2005, though no charges resulted. The argument being that the Prez can indeed pardon anyone over anything, but if the act of doing so is for corrupt reasons (e.g., obstructing justice), then the act of pardoning may itself be a prosecutable crime. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/506 "2017-07-22T07:22:27Z")
If there’s anyone who’d sell pardons, it’d be Trumpy. Hmm…the Seven Dwarves or the Seven Stooges? Lumpy (Bannon), Dumpy (Sessions), Bumpy (Spicer), Frumpy (Sanders) Stumpy (Priebus), Trumpy… and Clyde (Kushner). ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/507 "2017-07-22T14:48:56Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > “Warmest greetings to Mister President of America! > I am great grandson of Tsar Nikolai’s finance minister and know what Swiss bank holds Imperial gold …” > > He’d fall for it, wouldn’t he? 😃 In a New York minute. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/508 "2017-07-22T17:46:56Z")
**Elvish** , you forgot the part about being eager to invest in real estate. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/509 "2017-07-22T21:02:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The fact that the First Amendment is a slam-dunk doesn’t short-circuit the process. Slam-dunk, huh? Well, you’ll be interested to know that respected law professor Richard Hasen thinks the First Amendment defense is “[as bogus as it sounds](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/07/donald_trump_jr_s_free_speech_defense_is_as_bogus_as_it_sounds.html)”. So maybe you have a different definition of “slam-dunk” as I do? ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/510 "2017-07-22T21:13:04Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Slam-dunk, huh? > > Well, you’ll be interested to know that respected law professor Richard Hasen thinks the First Amendment defense is “[as bogus as it sounds](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/07/donald_trump_jr_s_free_speech_defense_is_as_bogus_as_it_sounds.html)”. So maybe you have a different definition of “slam-dunk” as I do? > [@](#): > > This defense, which has been advanced by noted First Amendment expert Eugene Volokh and others That right there tells you all you need to know about all these \*\*\*\*ing ‘Constitutional experts’ I’ve heard about the last 12 months. I’m not throwing shade on anyone but i’ll let the Supreme Court sort it out in a couple of years if it gets that far. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/511 "2017-07-22T21:18:48Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > That right there tells you all you need to know about all these \*\*\*\*ing ‘Constitutional experts’ I’ve heard about the last 12 months. Here’s what Volokh actually said: “I don’t think that could be criminalized…that suggests to me that this theory can’t be right”. How that got translated into “the First Amendment defense is a slam-dunk!!!” I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/512 "2017-07-22T23:53:21Z")
[What Criminal Charges Might Mueller Bring Against Donald Trump Jr.? Try None.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobfrenkel/2017/07/17/what-charges-special-counsel-mueller-will-consider-involving-donald-trump-jr/#1ec7f5602da3) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/513 "2017-07-22T23:59:38Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > [What Criminal Charges Might Mueller Bring Against Donald Trump Jr.? Try None.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobfrenkel/2017/07/17/what-charges-special-counsel-mueller-will-consider-involving-donald-trump-jr/#1ec7f5602da3) Try that’s an opinion piece. The investigation has barely begun. Why would you believe any decisions have been made? > [@](#): > > The revelations about Donald Trump Jr.'s meeting with a Russian attorney who purported to have dirt on Hillary Clinton from the Russian government, while perceived by many as a “bombshell,” do not, **without more information** , support a criminal offense. ETA: > [@](#): > > Determining whether there is a criminal offense involving the President’s son is the responsibility alone of Special Counsel Robert Mueller, with the aid of extensive federal investigative resources available to him.\*\* Mueller’s reputation and track-record is such that the public can have confidence that if there are violations of federal criminal law then charges will follow against whomever the evidence so dictates, \*\*that is except for the President ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/514 "2017-07-23T00:05:05Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > [What Criminal Charges Might Mueller Bring Against Donald Trump Jr.? Try None.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobfrenkel/2017/07/17/what-charges-special-counsel-mueller-will-consider-involving-donald-trump-jr/#1ec7f5602da3) Investigation is still ongoing buddy. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/515 "2017-07-23T00:40:16Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > [What Criminal Charges Might Mueller Bring Against Donald Trump Jr.? Try None.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobfrenkel/2017/07/17/what-charges-special-counsel-mueller-will-consider-involving-donald-trump-jr/#1ec7f5602da3) Suppose that within the next month, Donald Trump issues blanket pardons to everyone in his administration even remotely tied to the Russia scandal, pardoning them for any crimes they may have committed connected with it (in a manner essentiallythe same as the way Ford pardoned Nixon.) Most, if not all of them, accept the pardons. He then has Robert Mueller promptly fired, on the pretext that since everyone involved is pardoned, there is no point in an investigation. _Will you support this?_ ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/516 "2017-07-23T00:56:42Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Suppose that within the next month, Donald Trump issues blanket pardons to everyone in his administration even remotely tied to the Russia scandal, pardoning them for any crimes they may have committed connected with it (in a manner essentiallythe same as the way Ford pardoned Nixon.) Most, if not all of them, accept the pardons. He then has Robert Mueller promptly fired, on the pretext that since everyone involved is pardoned, there is no point in an investigation. > > _Will you support this?_ No, I’d consider that a mistake. But since I consider the Russian investigation a pure political witch hunt, based on no evidence whatsoever, I would not consider it a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/517 "2017-07-23T01:58:16Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Suppose that within the next month, Donald Trump issues blanket pardons to everyone in his administration even remotely tied to the Russia scandal, pardoning them for any crimes they may have committed connected with it (in a manner essentiallythe same as the way Ford pardoned Nixon.) Most, if not all of them, accept the pardons. He then has Robert Mueller promptly fired, on the pretext that since everyone involved is pardoned, there is no point in an investigation. > > _Will you support this?_ I would hope some enterprising folk would levy state charges of which The Don cannot pardon. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/518 "2017-07-23T02:26:53Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Suppose that within the next month, Donald Trump issues blanket pardons to everyone in his administration even remotely tied to the Russia scandal, pardoning them for any crimes they may have committed connected with it (in a manner essentiallythe same as the way Ford pardoned Nixon.) Most, if not all of them, accept the pardons. He then has Robert Mueller promptly fired, on the pretext that since everyone involved is pardoned, there is no point in an investigation. > > _Will you support this?_ How does this firing get accomplished? What’s the path? The investigation is not only pardoned people. It’s other countries and actors, and it can go on even if everyone is pardoned. That’s why it’s an investigation. The pretext won’t pass muster outside of threads. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/519 "2017-07-23T02:36:29Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > No, I’d consider that a mistake. But since I consider the Russian investigation a pure political witch hunt, based on no evidence whatsoever, I would not consider it a crime. The uinacknowledged meetings pile up, the incriminative appearances just keep on growing, the arguments against get more and more outlandish, and you still refuse to accept it. There is some there there, whether it’s prosecutable or not. But you won’t see it even if people DO get convicted. I can now officially call you the 25%. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/520 "2017-07-23T03:00:02Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > How does this firing get accomplished? What’s the path? The investigation is not only pardoned people. It’s other countries and actors, and it can go on even if everyone is pardoned. That’s why it’s an investigation. The pretext won’t pass muster outside of threads. Trump issues blanket pardons to Manafort, Trump Jr., Flynn, Sessions, Tillerson, Kushner, and any other person who spoke to any Russians at any time for any purpose on behalf of the Trump campaign. Period. Done. They are pardoned, and that is that. Trump orders Sessions to fire Mueller. Sessions probably does, given that he has just been given a blanket pardon. If he does not, Trump fires him, and keeps on firing people until he gets to someone who will fire Mueller. Mueller is now fired. The investigation is now over. Republican lawmakers tut-tut and say how this is not appropriate and a terrible, terrible thing. Next day, Republican lawmakers say we must now move on and forget about the whole terrible episode. We must work with Trump to enact his very important goals, and just move along. Nothing more to be done here. Democrat lawmakers fume, but they are in the minority. There is nothing whatsoever they can do. Trump loyalists say “That was indeed a mistake. But since we consider the Russian investigation a pure political witch hunt, based on no evidence whatsoever, it is not a crime. Time to move on.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001.md?page=27)