# Could and would Trump Sr. pardon Trump Jr. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 11, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001 "2017-07-11T15:00:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/561 "2017-07-24T19:12:00Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > After Trump pardons the lot, could they then simply refuse to testify before any group or committee about anything to do with Russia? Well, they could, but if they have been ordered by subpeona to testify, they could go to jail for it. Trump could in theory then pardon that, but he’d have to keep reissuing pardons. You cannot pardon something that was done in the future. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/562 "2017-07-24T19:16:19Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > But if he pardons everyone, then isn’t he admitting that it’s actually not a witch hunt? If they’ve done nothing wrong there wouldn’t be any need for pardons. So I think the “just a witch hunt” and “nothingburger” defenses would be rendered moot once pardons are issued? I guess bald faced bullshitting is pretty much all they’ve been doing so far though… And baldfaced bullshitting is all they’re going to do because they wouldn’t begin to know how to function any other way. Most presidents who know nothing about being president usually hire experts who can help them navigate the labyrinth of the federal government and the legal system under the constitution. They do this because they value these institutions, the system, and our constitutional framework. Trump does not. He deals with complexity by taking a sledgehammer to it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/563 "2017-07-24T19:21:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s correct. If they had a pardon in hand, they can’t plead the Fifth. And if not, then from a political standpoint, pleading the Fifth is difficult if you’re trying simultaneously to insist you’ve done nothing wrong. How about this tactic for Trump getting a pardon: It is “suddenly discovered” that President Trump needs to have surgery and be under general anesthesia. During that time, VP Pence is acting president. As acting president, Pence pardons Trump. Does the VP get all the powers of the president if he has to be acting president in such an instance? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/564 "2017-07-24T19:28:20Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > They would simply refuse to go before a Senate committee, as the Trump Pardon would have proved that they are innocent (sic). The Senate would huff and puff and do nothing. > > “We must now put this whole unfortunate incident behind us, as to continue would be of detriment to the country. It is a distraction, and we must now get down to business.” (Quick - put me in touch with Kushner and Trump Jr. They know some guys in Moscow, - my election is coming up and I need all the help I can get) Hmm…sounds to me like there’s a pretty solid basis for a subpoena there. Trump can’t control Congress, much as he’d like to and would in a heartbeat if given the opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/565 "2017-07-24T19:41:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Does the VP get all the powers of the president if he has to be acting president in such an instance? Depends on who’s on the Supreme Court when it gets to them. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/566 "2017-07-24T19:51:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Remember: Jared Kushner can be impeached in the exact same way that Jeff Sessions or Donald Trump could be impeached. Wait, what? Is a senior advisor to the President considered a “civil Officer of the United States”? More information, please. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/567 "2017-07-24T20:01:56Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Depends on who’s on the Supreme Court when it gets to them. Who would have standing to bring a case to the courts? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/568 "2017-07-24T20:08:48Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Wait, what? Is a senior advisor to the President considered a “civil Officer of the United States”? More information, please. [Here.](https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/03/27/presidential-memorandum-white-house-office-american-innovation) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/569 "2017-07-24T20:17:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Who would have standing to bring a case to the courts? Any victim of the crime being pardoned. That could include the entire citizenry. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/570 "2017-07-24T20:41:11Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Remember: Jared Kushner can be impeached in the exact same way that Jeff Sessions or Donald Trump could be impeached. I don’t think it’s ever been tested, but I would be hard pressed to read “civil Officers of the United States” in Section IV as something other than the “Officers of the United States” in Section II minus military officers. Why do you think otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/571 "2017-07-24T21:13:42Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Hmm…sounds to me like there’s a pretty solid basis for a subpoena there. Trump can’t control Congress, much as he’d like to and would in a heartbeat if given the opportunity. I simply don’t have any confidence that congress would subpoena or threaten Donnie half-scoop, or the son-in-law of Trump. They are gutless. They would respond by turtling. The system is screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/572 "2017-07-24T21:16:46Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > After Trump pardons the lot, could they then simply refuse to testify before any group or committee about anything to do with Russia? If there are legal repercussions, they could be pretty sure that Trump would just pardon them again for that, and also, they would know that the Trump tweets and Trump-media would be pushing very hard on the them of “This is just a witch hunt now, it’s all over, nothing to see here, the real story is about the leaks, what about Hillary” First off, I’m not sure the President has the power to pardon for contempt of Congress. Ex parte Grossman gives the President power to pardon criminal contempt of court, but as it points out: > [@](#): > > A pardon can only be granted for a contempt fully completed. Neither in this country nor in England can it interfere with the use of coercive measures to enforce a suitor’s right In other words, the president can pardon contempt when it’s punitive, but not when it’s to compelling civil action. Additionally, Grossman points out the simple fact, > [@](#): > > If it be said that the President, by successive pardons of constantly recurring contempts in particular litigation, might deprive a court of power to enforce its orders in a recalcitrant neighborhood, it is enough to observe that such a course is so improbable as to furnish but little basis for argument. Exceptional cases like this, if to be imagined at all, would suggest a resort to impeachment, rather than to a narrow and strained construction of the general powers of the President. Do you think Congress is just going to sit there and let the President impede their investigation? If he starts issuing pardons and then pardons of contempt and more on top of that, he’s killing himself politically, and just increasing the chances of his own impeachment. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/573 "2017-07-24T21:51:26Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Any victim of the crime being pardoned. That could include the entire citizenry. We’ll let you be the test case for that. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/574 "2017-07-24T22:33:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Do you think Congress is just going to sit there and let the President impede their investigation? If he starts issuing pardons and then pardons of contempt and more on top of that, he’s killing himself politically, and just increasing the chances of his own impeachment. My fear is that the majority in congress (being the Republican members) would respond by quitting any investigations, refusing to discuss Russia anymore, and declaring victory. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2017, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/575 "2017-07-25T01:29:20Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > My fear is that the majority in congress (being the Republican members) would respond by quitting any investigations, refusing to discuss Russia anymore, and declaring victory. Except that doesn’t seem to be what’s happening. Both Richard Burr, the chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, and Chuck Grassley, the chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, seem to be pretty committed to the Russia hearings, and I have to think that blatant interference by Trump will just get their backs up. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2017, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/576 "2017-07-25T09:47:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > How about this tactic for Trump getting a pardon: > > It is “suddenly discovered” that President Trump needs to have surgery and be under general anesthesia. During that time, VP Pence is acting president. As acting president, Pence pardons Trump. > > Does the VP get all the powers of the president if he has to be acting president in such an instance? Section 3 of the 25th Amendment says: > [@](#): > > Whenever the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and until he transmits to them a written declaration to the contrary, such powers and duties shall be discharged by the Vice President as Acting President. There is no limitation; nothing in the text or the legislative history suggests that the powers and duties exercised by the Acting President are not those of the President. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2017, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/577 "2017-07-25T11:22:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > How about this tactic for Trump getting a pardon: > > It is “suddenly discovered” that President Trump needs to have surgery and be under general anesthesia. During that time, VP Pence is acting president. As acting president, Pence pardons Trump. > > Does the VP get all the powers of the president if he has to be acting president in such an instance? Why would the guy whose doctor said he is in the best health of anyone in the history of the planet and aces all of his medical tests need surgery? Here’s the scenario I see more realistically playing out. The Senate goes into recess and McConnell doesn’t leave it in pro forma session like he did with Obama. Then Don the Con fires Sessions and picks a new AG as a recess appointment, bypassing the Senate. This new AG fires Moeller, ending the investigation and no need for pardons. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2017, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/578 "2017-07-25T11:33:21Z")
Firing Muller would be a disaster for Trump. That’s not to say he won’t do it or try to do it, but the more it looks like he’s interfering with the investigation into Russian election meddling, the more suspicious it looks, and the more politically weak he gets. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2017, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/579 "2017-07-25T11:59:13Z")
I don’t think that matters to him. He wants to stay out of prison and doesn’t care how bad it looks. He’s got maybe 20% of the population that would fight over the chance to kiss his butt and a Republican majority who would overlook anything in order to play reverse Robin Hood. That 20% is not going to leave him no matter what, and they’ll primary any Republican that fails to show proper deference to their Dear Leader. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2017, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/580 "2017-07-25T12:38:26Z")
The President called his AG weak on twitter this morning. Other speculation is that Trump has asked Sessions to fire Mueller and Sessions refused, thus Trump is trying to insult him into resigning. I wonder if a President has ever, in US history, openly insulted a member of his cabinet that he himself appointed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001.md?page=30)