# Could and would Trump Sr. pardon Trump Jr. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 11, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001 "2017-07-11T15:00:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/41 "2017-07-11T19:29:16Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I believe Laurence Tribe knows more about the law than I. It isn’t that exclusive a club, but he said “Attempted theft of a presidential election in collusion w/ Putin is a serious felony and a high crime against the state.” It doesn’t matter if he got information or not. > > From Richard Painter, former ethics lawyer for George W. Bush: “If he attempted to get illegally stolen private information from the Russians it was illegal for him to attempt to do so. Just like buying stolen goods from a known fence.” > > Lock him up! That’s Laurence Tribe the plagiarist and Richard Painter the…heh haha,BAHAHAHHA “Ethics Lawyer for George W. Bush”?? How can you type that without lightning hitting your keyboard?? But seriously, I don’t trust any lawyer who can’t understand the simple concept [of treason.](http://www.msnbc.com/brian-williams/watch/fmr-w-h-lawyer-richard-painter-on-russia-this-is-treason-931644483703) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/42 "2017-07-11T19:35:10Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > How do you legally see Jr falling “within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States?” Without that the rest of the law you cited is irrelevant to his case. “ **in any matter** within the jurisdiction” etc. Those matters being the alleged collusion, the alleged but fairly well-verified election-meddling, and the (I think) nine investigations into same, even if the allegations prove to be false. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/43 "2017-07-11T19:40:38Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > One of the important angles is whether anything is uncovered, e.g. financial crimes, that can be prosecuted under New York state law, outside the scope of Trump’s pardon powers. Agreed. Also seems possible there are state-level election or computer hacking crimes. > [@marshmallow](#): > > Anyone who accepts a pardon or other immunity deal waives their fifth amendment rights and can be compelled to testify, right? It depends on the scope of the pardon. It seems unlikely, for example, that there will be a pardon for financial crimes (and, in any event, the pardon would not provide immunity from state prosecution). > [@joebuck20](#): > > Howabout if Trump Jr. was charged with contempt of court for refusing to testify. Could he be pardoned for that? This is a really interesting question. Let’s assume we’re talking about federal court, since that’s the scope of the pardon power. Imagine a judge puts junior in contempt for refusing to testify. The President pardons him for that offense. Does that prevent the judge, or a different judge, from compelling him to testify again pursuant to a new subpoena or grand jury order? I’m not so sure it does. Maybe we’d just get a blanket pardon by Twitter every day. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/44 "2017-07-11T20:08:42Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > … But if working with a foreign power becomes something with no real consequence or worse yet “Meh, no big deal” make no mistake politicians will start seeking such deals because of course they will. Do you have a country anymore if the politicians are answering to foreign powers because they’ll help them win an election? Do not fret, this is not the dawning of a new age of scrupulousness and consequence free political behavior. If a Democrat should ever attempt it, you will see that Republicans with American flag lapel pins and red business ties and colorful 4th of July bunting underwear will spontaneously generate pretend outrage the likes of which BENGHAZI! himself could not fathom. Which will lead to actual punitive measures. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/45 "2017-07-11T20:30:53Z")
As for the President pardoning himself: The only way that the President could be prosecuted for a federal crime in the first place is via impeachment, and the pardon power explicitly does not extend to cases of impeachment. Alternately, he could be prosecuted for a state crime, but that’s also beyond the reach of a Presidential pardon (though he could ask nicely for the governor to do so). ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/46 "2017-07-11T20:35:00Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > As for the President pardoning himself: The only way that the President could be prosecuted for a federal crime in the first place is via impeachment . . . No, that’s a question that is also subject to significant debate. It’s not at all well-settled. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/47 "2017-07-11T20:36:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The only way that the President could be prosecuted for a federal crime in the first place is via impeachment Absolutely false. The impeachment process has nothing whatever to do with criminal law. There is no limit other than custom and political reality preventing a President from being prosecuted, and a President need not have been charged with any criminal activity to be impeached. > [@](#): > > the pardon power explicitly does not extend to cases of impeachment. Again, because impeachment is a purely political process, not a criminal one. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/48 "2017-07-11T20:38:12Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > I’m not going to write a brief, but here’s one to start with: > > Junior has made a number of false statements that run directly counter to the numerous collusion and election-meddling investigations. (Granted, he didn’t do it for very long, _so far as we know_, but that was only because he was under pressure by the NYT’s publication of articles.) > > Notice that there is no requirement to have been under oath. I’ll leave it to you to count the number of violations. Which specific “false statements” made specifically to whom are you referring? ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/49 "2017-07-11T20:38:53Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Not to mention Ford pardon Nixon before he could be charged. [It was mentioned.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20337626&postcount=32) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/50 "2017-07-11T20:52:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Which specific “false statements” made specifically to whom are you referring? Never mind. Because I didn’t notice that you are now moving the goal posts. My original statement was about “the meeting itself”, not about anything he may or may not have said about the meeting. Want to try again? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/51 "2017-07-11T21:01:21Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > [Minneapolis 1941?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_Act#Minneapolis_1941) Go on. Lay out your case. Which provision of the statute was violated by which specific actions by DT Jr. Please note (from your owns cite) that much of that act has been overturned by the SCOTUS since 1941. And for future reference, I won’t be responding to posts that consist of “here’s a law, go prove that DT Jr didn’t violate it”. Tell us specifically which provision of the statute was violated and which specific actions DT Jr took that violate that law. And be sure it is about “the meeting itself”, not something done outside the meeting. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/52 "2017-07-11T22:49:32Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Donald Trump Jr. was not a government official and is still isn’t, to my knowledge. He’s a presidential adviser and has security clearance. In order to get security clearance, he had to submit forms that required him to disclose any meeting with foreign representatives. He did not disclose his meetings with Natalia Veselnitskaya, who was representing the Russian government when he met with her. Lying on your security clearance form is illegal. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/53 "2017-07-11T22:59:41Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > He’s a presidential adviser and has security clearance. In order to get security clearance, he had to submit forms that required him to disclose any meeting with foreign representatives. He did not disclose his meetings with Natalia Veselnitskaya, who was representing the Russian government when he met with her. > > Lying on your security clearance form is illegal. Emphasis added. Are you required to disclose meetings with “foreign representatives” or “foreign officials”? And how do you know she was either one? And, how do you know that DT JR knew that she was either one? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/54 "2017-07-11T23:10:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And, how do you know that DT JR knew that she was either one? Did you read the emails released by Donald Trump Jr.? Here’s an excerpt of what was sent to Trump Jr: > [@](#): > > The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father. > > This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump - helped along by Aras and Emin. And after that, the meeting was set up. Are you seriously proposing with a straight face that Trump Jr. had no idea he was dealing with a representative of the Russian government? IT SAYS SO RIGHT IN THE EMAIL THAT TRUMP JR. READ! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/55 "2017-07-11T23:32:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Never mind. Because I didn’t notice that you are now moving the goal posts. My original statement was about “the meeting itself”, not about anything he may or may not have said about the meeting. Want to try again? Neither did I, actually, but it appears you’re right. To explain: I said ‘espionage,’ focusing on that, and searched through this page and its subpages: [Extracts from Espionage Laws and Federal Statutes Applicable to Information and Personnel Security](http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/law/espionage.htm) That’s from a site of the USAF’s Air Education and Training Command. While the meeting itself is an ancillary issue, it doesn’t change the fact that DJT Jr. appears to be in violation of that statute, several times over at least, at up to 5 years and a fine (I believe $10,000) per count. Of course, the fine is chicken feed, so I’d expect prosecutors would push for jail time, assuming Il Douche allowed it to get that far. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/56 "2017-07-11T23:34:24Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > According to [this article](https://www.vox.com/world/2017/7/10/15950590/donald-trump-jr-new-york-times-illegal): Of course, there is no precedent where information about the opponent’s criminal deeds were deemed to be a “thing of value” for the purposes of that law. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/57 "2017-07-11T23:38:37Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > He’s a presidential adviser and has security clearance. He isn’t and he hasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/58 "2017-07-11T23:44:33Z")
Current stance: “NOT ILLEGAL! NOT ILLEGAL” Future stance: “This is a witch hunt. Donald Trump Jr. is hereby pardoned for any act he may be accused of by the evil media and the horrible investigators” Apologists: "See! We told you he was innocent! This proves it! ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/59 "2017-07-11T23:52:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Emphasis added. Are you required to disclose meetings with “foreign representatives” or “foreign officials”? And how do you know she was either one? And, how do you know that DT JR knew that she was either one? Speaking from personal knowledge - contact with ANY foreign individual - with emphasis added for specific countries/nationalities. They don’t have to be a representative or an official. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/60 "2017-07-11T23:53:49Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Speaking from personal knowledge - contact with ANY foreign individual - with emphasis added for specific countries/nationalities. They don’t have to be a representative or an official. Except, as I said, Donald Trump Jr. has no government position and did not apply for nor receive a security clearance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001.md?page=4)