# Could and would Trump Sr. pardon Trump Jr. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 11, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001 "2017-07-11T15:00:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/161 "2017-07-12T23:20:52Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The police analogy doesn’t work, because in this case we are talking about a foreign country that employs extremely aggressive intelligence operations against Americans. It is colossally fucking stupid to meet with people who are linked to such governments who are offering shady deals. > > There is no damn way that Don Jr. and other Trump people should have taken that meeting at all, because even a reasonably smart person shouldn’t deal with such situations alone. And here we are talking about two people - Don Jr. and Kushner - who are utterly naive dilettantes who greatly overestimate their intelligence. And then there is Manafort, who is in the tank already, so he probably has the least to lose with such meetings anyway. It also doesn’t work because if anyone tells you that they have evidence of a crime, your only response should be to tell them to take it to the police. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/162 "2017-07-12T23:33:50Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Call me crazy, I would like to see the evidence first. ok, you’re crazy. And you’ve now got yourself in the middle of the ‘crime’ - with all kinds of attention and questions as to how you got the evidence, chain of custody requirements, etc. IOW - if you did ‘find’ good evidence - you likely just made it unuseable in any kind of criminal proceeding - but I guess if you got dirt to smear your political opponent with - thats ok. In which case - you didn’t need to ‘see’ the evidence either. Lets use a different example - [Pete Townshend](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/music-news/9572773/Pete-Townshend-I-paid-for-child-porn-to-prove-British-banks-were-channelling-sex-ring-cash.html) and [this](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/pete-townshends-child-porn-treatise)- while he was eventually cleared of charges - was he right to try and do this investigation in the manner he did? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/163 "2017-07-12T23:36:54Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Call me crazy, I would like to see the evidence first. Then you would be putting yourself in jeopardy, as Donnie half scoop did. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/164 "2017-07-12T23:50:08Z")
Well, I think we see what happens when you don’t go to the authorities, so the idea that it’s a good idea not to does not sit well with reality. One might insist that reality is wrong, but that’s a dangerous path to tread. ---
**Author:** ![dgrdfd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@dgrdfd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dgrdfd)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/165 "2017-07-13T00:21:50Z")
So those who feel this is totally okay, can we understand where your line is? Imagine Socialist Sammy is running for the presidency in 2020. 1. Is his campaign allowed to accept billions from communist countries? 2. What if they give no cash but just provide espionage on his opponents? 3. What if they work with the campaign, directly give no espionage, but receive direction from the campaign on propagating fake news stories and how to coordinate bots? Is all the above fair game? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/166 "2017-07-13T00:33:35Z")
1. Is it OK if Socialist Sammy’s team lies about all of the above? It’s OK as long as nobody knows about it, right? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/167 "2017-07-13T00:38:01Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Call me crazy, I would like to see the evidence first. But I thought it was all a witch hunt. Nothing to see here, remember? With absolute certainty and absolutely no evidence. What changed your tune? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/168 "2017-07-13T00:49:41Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > But I thought it was all a witch hunt. Nothing to see here, remember? With absolute certainty and absolutely no evidence. > > What changed your tune? Yes what a massive change of tune. All the way from “I don’t believe it” to “Show me the evidence”. How does he even brush his teeth with such crazily opposing thoughts running through his head? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/169 "2017-07-13T01:00:24Z")
> [@simster](#): > > ok, you’re crazy. > > And you’ve now got yourself in the middle of the ‘crime’ - with all kinds of attention and questions as to how you got the evidence, chain of custody requirements, etc. No, you don’t. You’re only saying that because you’re locked into that argument. You know, outside if this board, that the first thing you would do when someone called you and said “your opponent committed a crime, I have evidence” you’d say “show me”. But you’re committed to arguing the opposite because that doesn’t fit the agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/170 "2017-07-13T01:02:46Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > But I thought it was all a witch hunt. Nothing to see here, remember? With absolute certainty and absolutely no evidence. > > What changed your tune? That’s incoherent. The absolute certainty is BECAUSE there is no evidence. No one can show any evidence. When Senators of the opposing party (who’re supposed to know, they’re on committees and stuff) are asked directly, they say no, they haven’t seen any evidence. After months and months of searching and hysterical headlines - there is no evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/171 "2017-07-13T01:03:50Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > No, you don’t. You’re only saying that because you’re locked into that argument. > > You know, outside if this board, that the first thing you would do when someone called you and said “your opponent committed a crime, I have evidence” you’d say “show me”. But you’re committed to arguing the opposite because that doesn’t fit the agenda. No, I would rather see my opponent arrested than put out attack ads. This is how normal people think. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/172 "2017-07-13T01:18:04Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > No, I would rather see my opponent arrested than put out attack ads. … or both. But if the “crime” does not rise to the level of arrest, the publicizing of information definitely helps. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/173 "2017-07-13T01:53:05Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > No, you don’t. You’re only saying that because you’re locked into that argument. > > You know, outside if this board, that the first thing you would do when someone called you and said “your opponent committed a crime, I have evidence” you’d say “show me”. But you’re committed to arguing the opposite because that doesn’t fit the agenda. bullshit. Do not tell me what ‘I’ would do in a situation such as this. You are welcome to continue to say that ‘you’ would act in the manner prescribed, but do not tell me what ‘I’ would do. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/174 "2017-07-13T01:55:57Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > You know, outside if this board, that the first thing you would do when someone called you and said “your opponent committed a crime, I have evidence” you’d say “show me”. But you’re committed to arguing the opposite because that doesn’t fit the agenda. No. You are confusing movies/TV with real life. In the movies, when the brave hero gets a call/email/letter telling him that he must have a meeting in the warehouse/office/seedy bar with the kidnappers/gangsters/political agents, then he goes to find the evidence, because the police/army/intelligence service are corrupt/inept/absent. Then the brave hero saves the data/girl/priceless artifact, because the bad guys are inept/stupid/bad shots. I’m sorry buddy - this is the real world. It is a bad, bad, bad idea to “collect evidence” on your own. It leads to bad outcomes for you. It leads to you being arrested or compromised, or blackmailed. The best possible outcome is that you screw up any potential investigation. And in this case, Donnie half-scoop was not even interested in an investigation of the Democrats “wrongdoing”. He was interested in exploiting it. So your supposition that he was trying to get “evidence” is incorrect from the start. Just ask OJ if it is a good idea to go “get evidence” on your own, without involving the authorities. I believe he served serious jail time for that little escapade. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/175 "2017-07-13T02:48:20Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Let me try this one: you’re running the campaign of a guy running for dogcatcher. Someone emails you stating that he has evidence of criminal activity of your candidate’s opponent. Is the ethical thing: > > 1. Say “Great news! Let’s set up a meeting so we can exploit this!” > 2. Forward the email to your local police department. > > ? When you see accusations of wrongdoing about your political opponents on the Internet, would you say you typically wait for the police to render judgement, or would you say you’re comfortable with convicting them “in the court of public opinion?” ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/176 "2017-07-13T02:59:28Z")
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I remember that many conservatives (including our own Clothahump) referring to Hillary Clinton as a criminal, or a felon. Personally, I think it’s best to wait until the investigation is completed before I go that far in my thinking. I don’t always succeed in that, but I try. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/177 "2017-07-13T03:12:23Z")
“But officer, the drug in my trunk is proof that my opponent is a drug dealer. I was just checking the evidence for mysel!” Great way to frame an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/178 "2017-07-13T03:19:47Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > H > And it’s all just fine because in your opinion, “Not Illegal”. Just hunky dory. No problem if foreign governments obtain information however they can (I’m sure they will always obtain the information in ethical ways), and share it with whatever campaign they want in order to influence presidential elections, right? That’s the way things should be? No problem with that going forward into future elections? Two weeks ago every Trumpist, including Okrahoma, would have sworn a stack of Bibles that Trump’s team never met with Russians to help them win the election. Now that it’s proven they did, the Trumpists say it wasn’t technically illegal. Of course, key Trump people DO seem to have done illegal things (Flynn, Sessions) but that’s just ignored or handwaved away. No matter what happens, it’ll be ignored or excused. When it’s proven Trump is a traitor, Okrahoma will argue treason is okay in this case. Nothing will sway him, which is why he and other Trumpists refuse to say what their limit is, what would convince them not to support Trump; there is no limit. Make no mistake; Trump IS a traitor. He has already sold out to Putin, at least. The truth will come out, and the Trumpists will justify it. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/179 "2017-07-13T03:27:06Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Make no mistake; Trump IS a traitor. There’s your answer, **Bricker**. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001/180 "2017-07-13T03:27:32Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > I can’t speak for anyone else, but I remember that many conservatives (including our own Clothahump) referring to Hillary Clinton as a criminal, or a felon. Sure, some did. Not me. For example: > [@Hilary Clinton and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Personal E-mail Account](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-clinton-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-personal-e-mail-account/714092/1): > > Of course, some of those with an axe to grind against Secretary Clinton are now piously announcing their great concern for transparent retention of e-mail records. > . > . > . > To the extent it’s a violation, it’s one of NARA policy, and purely technical in nature. She used a personal account but sent mail to the [state.gov](http://state.gov) accounts of her staff, where that e-mail was properly retained as a record. > > This is manufactured outrage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-and-would-trump-sr-pardon-trump-jr/791001.md?page=10)