# Could anti-healthcare reform rhetoric backfire on the Republicans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899 "2010-03-18T16:05:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/61 "2010-03-18T23:17:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And then what? We cough up the extra $8M? > I’m not weighing in on whether or not rich people are worth more than poor people. I’m offering that as an example of what Bricker could say he was talking about to counter the claim that he thinks poor people should die if they can’t afford health care. > > In fact, he might very well have been meaning that charities should step in and prevent “poor people” from dying, and not the gov’t. You should read the thread. He didn’t weasel at all. He said - and he said it before this - that he thinks that people should take care of themselves. Pretty much exactly what he said in this thread. To his credit he did not say that charities should carry the load, since he might as well say that Jesus should swoop down and cure everyone. Not going to happen. It is refreshing to see someone willing to admit the implications of a position, and not try to confuse the picture with extreme examples and implausible alternatives. Now, if the Republicans came out and admitted that this was the root cause of their opposition, instead of ranting about death panels, socialized medicine, and killing granny, they’d get stomped. I’m talking of those smart enough to know better, and I’m not sure that includes Palin or not. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/62 "2010-03-18T23:22:03Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > The reason the bill is having trouble is that there is uniform and monolithic opposition from the Republicans. Democrats have a coalition of liberals, moderates and conservatives. No one bill will make all of them happy. Republicans however have decided to walk in lockstep without thinking and consideration. The reason the bill is in trouble is because [most](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html) of America is against it (or at least a plurality, in the latest polls). I heard on the radio that it’s currently at 2700 pages, that will redefine American’s relationship with both their healthcare provider and the insurance provider. Remember, 85% of Americans [have](http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/21/4/103) health insurance already, and [90%](http://www.kff.org/kaiserpolls/upload/7979.pdf) of them think that their coverage is either ‘excellent’ or ‘good’. Obama’s plan (or Obamacare, if you prefer) is guaranteed to mess with that. People on Medicare know that Obama wants to pull $500b out of that program; how can that not reduce the level of healthcare provided? No wonder that some Dems are against it; a vote for it is a good way to get whacked this November. (Not that it will be much better if it doesn’t get passed - but the Dems handed the GOP this weapon, they have nobody to blame but themselves). You like to blame Fox, Glen, talking points shows, as if Americans aren’t able to make a rational decision, economic man and freakanomics and so forth. That’s condescending in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/63 "2010-03-18T23:24:19Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Brain cancer, broken legs, and epilepsy are not “an ice cream,” a steak, or even a dozen roses. It’s beyond ridiculous to make that comparison. > > People WANT Blu-Ray, SUVs, fast food, and everything else they’re going to buy with those extra few dollars in tax savings. > > People NEED medical care, to the extent that anybody “needs” anything. It’s right below food, water, and shelter. It illustrates the point. Everyone’s in favor of healthcare (or any freebee from teh Feds), until reality hits and you have to pay the bills. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/64 "2010-03-18T23:25:09Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > It illustrates the point. Everyone’s in favor of healthcare (or any freebee from teh Feds), until reality hits and you have to pay the bills. And then only the Democrats stay at the table? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/65 "2010-03-18T23:37:08Z")
Backfire? Really? When’s the last time something like that happened? The only party that can get backfire are the Dems, due to the country’s makeup. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/66 "2010-03-18T23:51:38Z")
The Pubbies are bluffing. First off, most of the provisions in the bill are spread out over about four years. There are very few immediate effects. But there are some, mostly involving insurance for children, because not even the Pubbies dared to stand against health care for kiddies. But, of course, the people who benefit cannot vote, but their parents can. You think they will be grateful to the Dems for this benefit? I suspect so. But there are few effects to react to, there is nothing that will cause immediate outrage save for the insistance that it should. Most people will keep the same employer based stuff they already have, so most people will not be affected one way or the other, at least not directly. So why are they going to be outraged and vote Republican? The Pubbies plan to run on Obama’s massive unpopularity? Yay! Goody gum drops! This may add only a modest bump to Democrat voters. But they are already winning, aren’t they? Obama ran on his agenda, with health care reform at its center, and was swept into office. He had a plan, he took it to the Boss, and the Boss said “Yeah, go for it!” ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/67 "2010-03-19T01:50:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, each of your examples are hypocrisy. > > Because they all claim to identify a moral wrong, and then the speaker indulges in the very moral wrong he has decried. > > But notice the difference between your statements and the examples I gave. In both of my examples, the objection is not to moral wrongness but to a poor policy, one that is rejected because it will supposedly produce poor results. > > So instead of “Eating animals is wrong!” as a statement, perhaps we might envision: “Eating animals is unhealthy, and so you shouldn’t do it – we can get all the protein we need in more healthy fashion from non-animal sources!” > > “There are only two hot dogs left in the house, and no tofu.” > > “Then I’ll take them, because it’s more unhealthy still to not eat anything.” > > Not hypocritical. > > See the difference? I would just point out, in addition to **emacknight** ’s comment, that this: > [@Bricker](#): > > Yeah, but this is the basis of my objection. I don’t want to take care of you. I want to take care of me, and my family. And let you take care of you, and your family. is a statement grounded in a moral framework, not the result of a pragmatic analysis. And the arguments from the right have been overwhelmingly phrased in a moral tone (e.g., “no free healthcare for you!”, “socialism is evil”, “why should my money go to someone else?”), not an objective survey of hte predicted costs of various healthcare reform routes. So, yes, most of the current opponents of the healthcare bill would indeed be hypocrites if they chose to take advantage of its benefits. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/68 "2010-03-19T02:20:00Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > What I want is a system that reflects A) We’re all going to get sick and/or injured at some point, B) We’re the richest country on earth, and can easily afford to take care of each other if we decide we want to. That’s my sentiments. I guess it would be communistic to suggest that maybe a society does have some obligations regarding the well being of its members? If society owes us nothing, then that would seem to prove there is no valid reason to belong, and the society had no reason to exist. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/69 "2010-03-19T02:23:49Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > You don’t have an explicit constitutional right not to be murdered by your neighbor, either. What’s your point? In that case, there is a phrase about “life, liberty and the pursuit of…” and various other laws against murder. I also have a “right by natural law”, meaning that neighbor better be fast enough strong enough, and clever enough to make sure I don’t “get” him first. It’s the law if tooth and claw, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/70 "2010-03-19T03:01:58Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > The reason the bill is in trouble is because [most](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html) of America is against it (or at least a plurality, in the latest polls). Most Americans are for the components of the bill when it is explained to them. Many are against it because the Republicans have been lying for over a year and a half about it. Every single Republican I’ve seen as a talking head has lied. Every single one. Government takeover, raise the deficit, raise insurance costs, these are lies. You have obviously been taken in along with millions of others. But you owe it to yourself to educate yourself on this issue, you’re spouting gibberish. > [@](#): > > I heard on the radio that it’s currently at 2700 pages, that will redefine American’s relationship with both their healthcare provider and the insurance provider. How many pages was the social security bill? Oh, you don’t know? I guess you’re not qualified to pass judgement on how many pages major legislation should be, right? The page source for the page I’m writing this on, right now is 2700 lines of HTML and CSS. How is that possible? The page I’m on isn’t 2700 lines long? Oh, right, it’s because the back end parts of complicated things sometimes are more complex than someone ignorant about the workings would guess. > [@](#): > > Remember, 85% of Americans [have](http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/21/4/103) health insurance already, and [90%](http://www.kff.org/kaiserpolls/upload/7979.pdf) of them think that their coverage is either ‘excellent’ or ‘good’. If you had bothered to learn anything about the issue, you would know that most of our populace get coverage through the job. Most of our populace are insulated from the actual cost of HC insurance by the job picking up the lion’s share. But we still pay almost twice as much as anyone else in the world and have much, much worse results. 90% like their doctors. Their insurance sucks, whether they know it or not. > [@](#): > > Obama’s plan (or Obamacare, if you prefer) I most certainly do not, it sounds like a bullshit bumpersticker slogan a mental deficient came up with > [@](#): > > is guaranteed to mess with that. Again, you don’t understand the issue. The current HCR bill will lower costs for everyone (except for the self-employed, because they usually buy bare bones horrible coverage), eliminate pre-existing conditions and lifetime and yearly maximums. It will make coverage for the vast majority of Americans better. If you don’t believe me, educate yourself and read the CBO report. > [@](#): > > People on Medicare know that Obama wants to pull $500b out of that program; how can that not reduce the level of healthcare provided? \*\*You are being lied to and are repeating those lies. \*\* Medicare Advantage is being cut. This is a private program that costs more than Medicare and has similar results. It is waste. It is being removed. > [@](#): > > No wonder that some Dems are against it; a vote for it is a good way to get whacked this November. I would like to take the moment to note that you have been completely and utterly wrong thusfar. > [@](#): > > (Not that it will be much better if it doesn’t get passed - but the Dems handed the GOP this weapon, they have nobody to blame but themselves). If it doesn’t pass the lies will be assumed to be true. If it does pass, the morons who currently believe the lies will eventually pretend they weren’t actually against it. > [@](#): > > You like to blame Fox, Glen, talking points shows, as if Americans aren’t able to make a rational decision, economic man and freakanomics and so forth. That’s condescending in my opinion. Seeing as Glen and Fox have brainwashed you, I don’t much value your opinion. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/71 "2010-03-19T03:05:43Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Seeing as Glen and Fox have brainwashed you, I don’t much value your opinion. 😃 Glen? As in Glen Beck? PLEASE tell me this guy (the anti health care guy) is joking. Glen Beck is the fount of all wisdom? Anyone who gets his “facts” from Beck is beyond redemption. ---
**Author:** ![Oregon\_sunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/50afbb/32.png) [@Oregon\_sunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oregon_sunshine)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/72 "2010-03-19T04:00:47Z")
How about the conservatives move to their own country where they have no infrastructure and leave the rest of us alone… that’s what they want… right? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/73 "2010-03-19T05:50:05Z")
Republicans are more easily manipulated than Democrats, conservatives by their nature are more susceptible to to emotions than liberals. This is the reason why Democrats won’t get very far using the same lying and dirty tactics the Pubs use: liberals don’t fall for that kind of shit and find it distasteful. Those in Congress, I suspect, know that the Pub’s arguments are shit, and their manipulation blatant. But the followers of the Becks and Limbaughs don’t know that because they’re idiots. It’s much easier to rouse them into a state of frenzy than explain to them the merits of a complicated health care system. If the Pubs ever get in power and reform health care, they will simply pretend this time period never happened. They will use all of the language and arguments liberals are using now, only throw in some “…and you’re unpatriotic if you don’t support it” bullshit at the end of it. So no, I don’t see it backfiring on them. Not unless the frothing masses who somehow hate health care die off and are replaced with average intelligence human beings ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/74 "2010-03-19T05:55:54Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The Pubbies are bluffing. > > First off, most of the provisions in the bill are spread out over about four years. There are very few immediate effects. **But there are some, mostly involving insurance for children, because not even the Pubbies dared to stand against health care for kiddies.** But, of course, the people who benefit cannot vote, but their parents can. You think they will be grateful to the Dems for this benefit? I suspect so. I think you underestimate the idiocy and evilness of the Pubs. Bush twice vetoed SCHIP. Sure, some of his dingbat Pubs in Congress supported it, but as we’ve seen with Bunning (“old people died but I missed my game!”), Pubs are eager to stick it to Dems at every opportunity. They’ll simply spin it as health care for illegal immigrant kids or another part of Obama’s socialist master plan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/75 "2010-03-19T12:55:45Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > But you can’t afford to take care of you and your family. I mean, maybe you can right this moment, but costs for emergency or chronic care can be prohibitive for all but the most wealthy. Even the poor can afford medical care when they’re not using any. > > So, like any sane American who can afford it, you buy health insurance, because you can’t afford to pay for unforeseen medical needs. You are not paying for your medical care. _I_ am (well, would be if I had insurance, and the same provider as you). > > Currently, nobody (a vanishingly small minority) can afford to pay for health care out of pocket for more than the most basic, occasional care. A large number of individuals cannot afford to pay for their health insurance either. Private, employer-based health insurance guarantees that only the wealthy and those fortunate enough to have a compensation package that includes health insurance will be able to afford medical care. All others _will_ go bankrupt or into crippling debt if any major needs arise. Yes. I have no problem with volunteering to help you and your family. I don’t want to be forced into it. And in my current situation, I volunteer to participate in a risk pool where everyone else is contributing the same amount to the pool that I am. I don’t want to be forced to participate in a giant, nation-wide risk pool where some members get the same benefits while not paying the same amount in. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/76 "2010-03-19T12:56:25Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Most Americans are for the components of the bill when it is explained to them. The only component of the bill Americans are against is the cost, and the effect on the deficit. > [@](#): > > If you had bothered to learn anything about the issue, you would know that most of our populace get coverage through the job. On the other hand, government already pays about half, or a bit more, of the total spending on health care in America ([cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States#cite_note-content.healthaffairs.org-64)). > [@](#): > > Most of our populace are insulated from the actual cost of HC insurance by the job picking up the lion’s share. Whereas, in taxpayer-funded health-care, they are insulated from the actual cost of HC by the taxpayer picking up the lion’s share. > [@](#): > > Again, you don’t understand the issue. The current HCR bill will lower costs for everyone (except for the self-employed, because they usually buy bare bones horrible coverage), eliminate pre-existing conditions and lifetime and yearly maximums. It will make coverage for the vast majority of Americans better. If you don’t believe me, educate yourself and read the CBO report. I don’t believe you, and I have already read the report. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Congress, whether controlled by Republicans or Democrats, has not made the cuts necessary to keep Medicare solvent. I (and a majority of the American public) do not believe they will do it now. And your statement that Obamacare will reduce costs overall is false - a large tax increase is not a cost cut. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/77 "2010-03-19T13:02:38Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > In the tofu case the person has the option of going to a store. But rather than have mild inconvenience would rather break their moral position. > > As for the person who hates bailouts thinks they are bad policy, they should have no part in them or they should change their position to _bailouts, do in fact sometimes help_. Otherwise they are hypocrites. > > Sometimes being practical involves hypocrisy. The bail-out dude is just being practical. He however, hasn’t amended his stance that bailouts are bad, so he’s a steaming hypocrite. Sorry, but your attempt at splitting hairs here is really bereft of any substance. No. There is a difference between believing that a course of action is poor for the group to take, and believing that it’s wrong to participate with the group. So a group of us get lost in the woods. You think we should try going left because you’re pretty sure you saw the lights of a town through the trees in that direction. I think we should go right because I think I saw lights that way. There is discussion amongst the group, and we agree to put it to a vote. The group votes to follow your suggestion, and starts off. Then you notice I’m also turning left and shriek, “Hypocrite!! Hypocrite!!” No, I’m not. I still think the best course would have been to turn right. But if the group has overruled me, deciding I’m going to stay with the group is not hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/78 "2010-03-19T15:41:35Z")
Thanks **Sho** , you saved me a lot of typing. Thinking that Congress will suddenly become deficit hawks and make the hard choices shows niavete and ignorance of history. **Yog** , your quote > [@](#): > > conservatives by their nature are more susceptible to to emotions than liberals is completely false, unless you got a cite, in which case, bring it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/79 "2010-03-19T15:57:47Z")
The calm, reasoned discourse that the Republicans are offering, what with their astute criticism of death panels and socialism, is a beacon to us all. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/80 "2010-03-19T15:59:12Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Thanks **Sho** , you saved me a lot of typing. > > Thinking that Congress will suddenly become deficit hawks and make the hard choices shows niavete and ignorance of history. We don’t need Obamacare to make cuts in Medicare spending. And Obama is on record that the cuts necessary for his program not to balloon the deficit (even more than two trillion he has added to the deficit so far) are not intended to address all of the structural flaws of Medicare. Obama wanted to model his version of UHC on Medicare - which is going bankrupt, and costs ten times more as projected. But when Obama says his program will reduce the deficit, we are supposed to believe him. Uh huh. :rolleyes: Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899.md?page=5)