# Could anti-healthcare reform rhetoric backfire on the Republicans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899 "2010-03-18T16:05:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/121 "2010-03-19T19:38:42Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Exactly. If it were such a slam dunk, it would have been done already. A silly argument. The Republicans had control and they really, really like the idea of the government privatizing things. The fact that Medicare Advantage is a private project that runs with government money made they happy, the fact is though, it wastes money. It provides no better results and costs more, so cutting it is the right thing to do. > [@](#): > > I suspect that those who argue that the $500b from Medicare and $200b from DocFix are no-brainers are either I’ve shown you above and before in this very thread where it is you who don’t understand the issues. Please respond to that if you get a chance. > [@](#): > > a) not being realistic about the way Congress tends to operate, especially in light of the pushback they will get from the docs (not the AMA) once it’s time to pay the piper > > b) have convinced themselves that socialized healthcare is such a good thing that they are fooling themselves about the likelihood of those cuts happening > > c) fail to take into account the unintended consequences of this bill. For example [45%](http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=506199) of doctors say they are considering retiring early if this passes. That’s 360,000 doctors. How can that not have an effect on healthcare delivery? How can that not make for very long waiting lists for procedures? It would. Thankfully the poll isn’t scientific and misleading. [http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/09/ibdtipp-doctors-poll-is-not-trustworthy.html](http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/09/ibdtipp-doctors-poll-is-not-trustworthy.html) Don’t you ever question things you are told? > [@](#): > > At the end of the day, as most people realize, it’s impossible to cover another 30-40m people (depending on illegals getting coverage) with both less cost and better care. It is. It is done in three dozen other countries. It is done for less cost, with better results and more of the population covered. We waste a ton of money with our system. This is a fact, and you really should face facts. > [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > It’s the only round in their gun I notice you haven’t responded to previous questions. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Facts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bb73d2/32.png) [@The\_Facts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Facts)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/122 "2010-03-19T19:40:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So, I reiterate: it is acceptable for people to die because they can’t afford health care. Wow. That’s the most disgusting thing I’ve ever heard anyone say. You people really do worship money, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/123 "2010-03-19T19:42:58Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Have you been paying attention to the “debate” coming out of the conservative side? Have you listened to one Senator PRAYING FOR THE DEATH OF ANOTHER? Do you know who Joe Wilson is? Waving around a 4 page “health care reform” bill with no numbers in it and just trying to look good on TV is not a rational, logical course of action. Go to a Tea Party gathering and take a drink everytime someone gets emotional, you’ll be dead within 5 mins. > > The conservatives are nothing but emotion. It is a fact, it is easily observable on any 30 min period of FOX News. They are much much more susceptible to this kind of emotional manipulation than Democrats. I’ve been paying attention to both sides. Both have a religious ferver about their positions and are unlikely to move (much like this board). I think it is awful to pray for the death of anyone (except of course when they whacked that Neanderthal [Powell](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/crime-scene/josh-white/detailed-account-of-powells-vi.html) last night in Jarratt… I even flickered and dimmed my lights here in Northern Va at 9p :D). I’m guessing you’re liberal (excuse me, _progressive_) and just see the other side as wrong/emotional as a way to invalidate their pretty reasonable positions; a position held by more Americans than yours. But not all conservatives are just emotion, just as not all Dems are; just the ones you want to demonize to validate your viewpoint as the reasonable one. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/124 "2010-03-19T19:44:58Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > I already have, many times. You continue to ignore the obvious, what momst reasonable people see clearly. Which is fine, that’s what partisans do. Perhaps you’d like to get your ‘facts’ from somewhere besides Kos and HuffPo. Please address my post. You are declaring victory without actually doing anything to justify it. Does that seem like something a good debater would do? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/125 "2010-03-19T19:57:47Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > What would it take to convince you? > > Doesn’t the fact that countries with UHC pay less, get better health results and cover more of their population than us count as evidence? > > The (non-partisan) CBO says the bill will cover 30 million more people, lower costs\*, reduce the deficit and get rid of pre-existing conditions, yearly caps, lifetime caps and dropping people when they get sick. > > It costs money, it’s not magic, but the money is gotten from a failed Medicare Advantage program (Not Medicare itself, which the right lies about daily) and some increased taxes. > > What would it take, what stars could align that would make you think this might be a good idea? The arguments from the right are about the process, ramming throats, government takeovers, socialism… they aren’t about the merits. > > \*people who purchase single policies may pay more, but they will get much, much better policies for their money. Currently most people on the single market get dumbed down plans with huge deductibles. For me it isn’t necessarily about ideology although some ideological concerns may rear up in my pros/cons list. It would take me believing in the government (?), it would take me believing that they are the right (only) ones capable of making this dynamic work, and it would take a lot more transparency than has been shown so far (in order for me to make that informed decision. You are right about one thing: The right tries to ram things (ideas, philosophies et al) down the throats of the general populace but then again, so does the left. Where is the promised transparency and when exactly does it start? This bill (being a watered down version) is a far cry from what the extreme left wants but it has nothing that the right wants as can be evidenced by the fact that none of them will vote for it. What I want is probably what most centrists want. An end to partisan bills and a focus on coming to a consensus on what is best for America with a combination of ideas (from both parties) The way they are trying to get this bill passed just shrieks to me of partisanship. I don’t care that it has been done before (maybe I benefit from it or maybe I didn’t) To be frank, I didn’t much follow politics back in my 20’s, I just figured I was unimportant and it wasn’t until I had kids that I started realizing that EVERYTHING the government does has far reaching capabilities. I want a better America for my kids than I have. That means I don’t want them footing the bill because the fat asses in Congress make them do so. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/126 "2010-03-19T19:58:26Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > LOL. I’d chastise you for not reading your own links, but I’ll chalk that up to a quickie Google to get something, anything, to try to bolster your ridiculous arguments. This guy Nate says he doesn’t like the poll because a) it was done by mail. You kidding me? b) one of the poll sentences was a run-on. Again.. what? c) they missed the McCain youth vote numbers… OK, they got one wrong. BFD d) the survey wasn’t totally complete. Oh, I’m sure those stragglers will drastically change the 45% considering retirement :rolleyes: e) no disclosure about methodology. In other words, they may have only sought out doctors on some list that were already considering retiring, or cross-matched doctors with some GOP donor list. That’s the one point I can get behind… if you can find a better poll to cite or show proof that it was clearly rigged, and drastically rigged (that’s on you, I already put up a poll). If not, well, we’ll go with what we have. If you still can’t understand this, I’m afraid I can’t help you. You are grasping at straws to deny what most people see as terribly obvious. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/127 "2010-03-19T20:01:21Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > It’s the only round in their gun Only one left, the rest are lodged in the mouldering corpse of your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/128 "2010-03-19T20:04:51Z")
> [@The\_Facts](#): > > Wow. That’s the most disgusting thing I’ve ever heard anyone say. > > You people really do worship money, don’t you? Do you honestly not get **Bricker’s** point? Do you not understand that we don’t have infinite resources, for anything (including healthcare)? Even though **elucidator** is wrong about most things (as he is in this thread), at least he seems to get the concept here of a line to be drawn. Life isn’t priceless. If it were, the speed limit would be 5 mph, nationwide. We must balance the need to function as a society with what we can do to help save lives. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/129 "2010-03-19T20:12:11Z")
[The backfiring is already under way.](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/3/19/847866/-Poll:-GOP-opposition-makes-people-more-likely-to-support-health-care-reform) 😃 The Kaiser Health Foundation survey sez: > [@](#): > > QUESTION: Does the fact that every Republican Member of Congress opposes the current health care proposals make you more likely to support the legislation, less likely, or doesn’t that make much difference either way? > More likely to support legislation: 27% > Less likely to support legislation: 20% > No difference: 51% > > QUESTION: Does the fact that President Obama supports the current health care proposals make you more likely to support the legislation, less likely, or doesn’t that make much difference either way? > More likely to support legislation: 36% > Less likely to support legislation: 21% > No difference: 42% [And overall support is already a majority and strengthening](http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/87875-kaiser-poll-shows-uptick-in-support-for-health-reform) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/130 "2010-03-19T20:12:21Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > LOL. I’d chastise you for not reading your own links, but I’ll chalk that up to a quickie Google to get something, anything, to try to bolster your ridiculous arguments. This guy Nate says he doesn’t like the poll because > > a) it was done by mail. You kidding me? > b) one of the poll sentences was a run-on. Again.. what? > c) they missed the McCain youth vote numbers… OK, they got one wrong. BFD > d) the survey wasn’t totally complete. Oh, I’m sure those stragglers will drastically change the 45% considering retirement :rolleyes: > e) no disclosure about methodology. In other words, they may have only sought out doctors on some list that were already considering retiring, or cross-matched doctors with some GOP donor list. That’s the one point I can get behind… if you can find a better poll to cite or show proof that it was clearly rigged, and drastically rigged (that’s on you, I already put up a poll). If not, well, we’ll go with what we have. > > If you still can’t understand this, I’m afraid I can’t help you. You are grasping at straws to deny what most people see as terribly obvious. a) is pretty important. Was the return address prominently displayed on the envelope? Sort of thing that ensures that doctors who are favorably inclined to positions they find in Investor’s are likely to open the envelope and answer the survey, radical progressive doctors will most likely chuck it. b) not that it was “run on” but that it has a less than objective tone. “Do you really, really believe that magic fairies will fly out of Obamas ass and fix everything? Seriously?” Scrupulous pollsters avoid that sort of thing. c) well, yeah, they were dead wrong. Maybe they’re not very good at this sort of thing, as evidenced by a) and b) d) well, it wasn’t, was it? Sort of thing really professional pollsters simply don’t do. e) reliable pollsters always but always put their methodology out in front where it can be inspected. Otherwise, they invite derision. Which they got. And deserved. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Facts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bb73d2/32.png) [@The\_Facts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Facts)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/131 "2010-03-19T20:24:49Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Do you honestly not get **Bricker’s** point? Do you not understand that we don’t have infinite resources, for anything (including healthcare)? We have _enough_. In some hypothetical fairyland, maybe there’s no money. As it is, we have lots; rich people just don’t wanna give it up. How many people’s healthcare could Bill Gates’ money cover? A few million I suspect. Raise taxes back to where they oughta be, over 50% for people making above median income, and the problem is solved. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/132 "2010-03-19T20:30:23Z")
**eluc** , I agree that it wasn’t the best survey ever conducted, in the history of the world. But 1376 doctors, chosen randomly throughout the country, is a pretty big N. And 45% considering retirement, if this passes, is a massive number. You and **Lobo** seem to want to blow that off. Let’s say that you’re right (and you’re not, but let’s just pretend). What’s the actual number? 35% 30% Hell, 25% is whopping 200,000 doctors. You seem to want to completely dismiss this. The point is this: There will be massive unintended consequences as a result of passing this bill, assuming it passes. You know it, and I know it. And most people are actually happy with their insurance coverage and healthcare choices, as I already [proved](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12239766&postcount=62). Those in favor of this bill don’t respond to that, because, well, there is no reasonable excuse for messing with that. Unless you have an emotional drive to get socialized healthcare, as per earlier discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/133 "2010-03-19T20:32:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: all you want, but generational change really **is** leading the country leftward – very slowly, but steadily. > > Tiiiiiiiime is on **my** side > Yes it is! 😃 You may be right, but that does not mean it is a net positive for the country, or the world. Then again, if your side can swing legalization of marijuana, my side will be a lot more mellow about our other disagreements. So y’all get busy with that. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/134 "2010-03-19T20:36:34Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > **eluc** , I agree that it wasn’t the best survey ever conducted, in the history of the world. But 1376 doctors, chosen randomly throughout the country, is a pretty big N. And 45% considering retirement, if this passes, is a massive number. You and **Lobo** seem to want to blow that off. A bad poll is a bad poll. Your numbers are meaningless. > [@](#): > > Let’s say that you’re right (and you’re not, but let’s just pretend). What’s the actual number? 35% 30% Hell, 25% is whopping 200,000 doctors. You seem to want to completely dismiss this. A bad poll is a bad poll. Your numbers are meaningless. > [@](#): > > The point is this: There will be massive unintended consequences as a result of passing this bill, assuming it passes. You know it, and I know it. You do not know it. You are assuming it. > [@](#): > > And most people are actually happy with their insurance coverage and healthcare choices, as I already [proved](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12239766&postcount=62). Those in favor of this bill don’t respond to that, because, well, there is no reasonable excuse for messing with that. I demolished your argument in my post above. But you haven’t addressed it yet. Why is that? Don’t you think a good debater should address when people show his arguments are wrong? Why don’t you do that? > [@](#): > > Unless you have an emotional drive to get socialized healthcare, as per earlier discussion. You are the one with the emotional drive. You haven’t got facts to back you up, so you are repeating fantasies. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/135 "2010-03-19T20:38:56Z")
**TWEEEET!!** No more comments about how the “other side” is too stupid or emotional or easily led or whatever. It is rather stupid as a discussion point and simply encourages others, (both companions and opponents) to wade in with their own silly claims. If someone wants to debate that topic separately, (preferably in the **Pit** , more preferably on some other message board, and most preferably on some school playground), open a separate thread to do so–and bring serious facts, because if it is going to be more silly claims based on cherrypicked quotes, I will close it. Stick to the topic of this thread. \*\* [/Moderating]\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/136 "2010-03-19T20:46:01Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > What would it take to convince you? Pass the Medicare cuts first. Prove you can really do it. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [And overall support is already a majority and strengthening](http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/87875-kaiser-poll-shows-uptick-in-support-for-health-reform) This statement is false. You appear not to have read your own cite > [@](#): > > Most surveys have found more Americans against the healthcare plan than for it, though the gap has been closing in recent weeks. The [Pollster.com](http://Pollster.com) average of polls, taken before the release of the Kaiser survey Friday, found 49 percent against the bill and 43 percent for it. > > Kaiser polls have generally found more support for the healthcare reform plan than other surveys. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/137 "2010-03-19T20:56:05Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Pass the Medicare cuts first. The bill is cutting Medicare Advantage, not Medicare. Do you appreciate that there is a difference? They are trying to pass the bill right now. Currently, the plan is to ramp it down over time I think. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/138 "2010-03-19T20:59:07Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > A bad poll is a bad poll. Your numbers are meaningless. > > A bad poll is a bad poll. Your numbers are meaningless. > > You do not know it. You are assuming it. > > I demolished your argument in my post above. But you haven’t addressed it yet. Why is that? Don’t you think a good debater should address when people show his arguments are wrong? Why don’t you do that? > > You are the one with the emotional drive. You haven’t got facts to back you up, so you are repeating fantasies. OK, just so I’m clear: Your story, and you’re sticking to it, is that the entire poll is completely incorrect and can be completely ignored, and NO doctors will retire and therefore reduce healthcare access to millions of Americans once this bill passes. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/139 "2010-03-19T21:02:05Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I demolished your argument in my post above. But you haven’t addressed it yet. Why is that? Don’t you think a good debater should address when people show his arguments are wrong? Why don’t you do that? Sorry, you have spouted a lot of (gibberish) so I can’t follow what you claim ‘demolished’ my point. Please help me to understand your labyrinthine logic by reposting. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899/140 "2010-03-19T21:02:48Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Your story, and you’re sticking to it, is that the entire poll is completely incorrect and can be completely ignored, Yes. > [@](#): > > and NO doctors will retire Where the flying fuck did you get THAT from? :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-anti-healthcare-reform-rhetoric-backfire-on-the-republicans/532899.md?page=8)